20:00:03 <ddemaio> #startmeeting
20:00:03 <bugbot> Meeting started Tue Apr 10 20:00:03 2018 UTC.  The chair is ddemaio. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:00:03 <bugbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
20:00:18 <ddemaio> #chair ddemaio
20:00:18 <bugbot> Current chairs: ddemaio
20:00:19 <Mir> ddemaio, we need opensuse underpants!  need to beat those SUSE peeps with their sexy socks!
20:00:33 <Fraser_Bell> Ana, looks fine to me on the Wiki.
20:00:38 <ddemaio> Welcome everyone to the debate for this year’s openSUSE Board Elections. The debate will be from 20:00 UTC to 21:00 UTC. If we are in the middle of responses to a question at 21:00 UTC, each candidate will have a chance to respond to that question before ending the debate. ddemaio will post the recording of this to the opensuse-project mailing list.
20:00:46 <knurpht> Ana, looks fine here
20:01:03 <ddemaio> #info Elections will run from April 15 to April 27.
20:01:03 <ddemaio> #info Format of Debate
20:01:03 <ddemaio> #info Each of the candidates will have a chance to respond to the questions presented. The order of response will be alphabetically, unless specified by a question for a direct candidate. Aaron, Ana, Gerry, Gertjan and Simon.
20:01:16 <ddemaio> #IRC Names:
20:01:16 <ddemaio> #info Aaron - aluna
20:01:16 <ddemaio> #info Ana - Ana06
20:01:18 <ddemaio> #info Gerry - Fraser_Bell
20:01:19 <ddemaio> #info Gertjan - knurpht
20:01:21 <ddemaio> #info Simon - Simotek
20:01:24 <ddemaio> Please end your response with “END”.
20:01:26 <ddemaio> Ok. lets get started
20:01:52 <ddemaio> Medwinz has a few questions he sent me today
20:02:17 <ddemaio> aluna will go first
20:02:19 <ddemaio> #topic Many developers come from Europe and US, but I believe many new users are coming from the other parts of the world like Asia and South/Latin America. Users are important in open source development they can help to give feedback to developers. Any plan to increase the involvement of users from this part of the world? How all the candidates view this condition?
20:04:05 <ddemaio> go ahead aaron
20:04:12 <aluna> Hi all
20:05:06 <aluna> Yes, I have a plan......and is called openSUSE Academy
20:05:36 <aluna> The openSUSE Academy project is the implementation of FOSS laboratories in each of the Universities that wish to participate in the use of openSUSE and lay the foundations for future developers of the openSUSE project.
20:05:41 <Mir> (`-`)/ so like Linux Academy except a place where one can get SUSE and Opensuse training easier than currently?
20:05:56 <tacit> Mir: sssh
20:06:03 <aluna> These future developers will have local mentoring through some of the teachers who wish to contribute, as well as experts who are already developing the technologies within SUSE and openSUSE.
20:06:23 <aluna> In this way we will be promoting the use and development of the openSUSE project at a scale that no other FOSS project has carried out.
20:06:28 <aluna> END
20:06:50 <ddemaio> ok. ana
20:07:07 <Ana06> Users are of course important, but what I would really like to achieve is more people from Asia and other parts of the world getting involved in openSUSE development.
20:07:50 <terrorpup> Sorry to be late
20:07:56 <Ana06> And as aluna I think mentoring is crucial here. I have for example written a blog post to encourage more students in Indonesia to apply to GSoC:
20:08:00 <Ana06> http://anamaria.martinezgomez.name/2018/02/15/gsoc-in-indonesia.html
20:09:17 <Ana06> And I have asked help to the community to translate it, so that versions of it have been published in Indonesian, Japanese and Spanish
20:10:01 <terrorpup> Ana06, do you belong to any of the Facebook or Website for these groups?
20:10:31 <Ana06> Regarding to the board, I think it can help to encourage and facilitate the collaboration between communities around the world
20:10:49 <Ana06> END
20:11:00 <ddemaio> Ok. Thx ana. Gerry
20:11:15 <Fraser_Bell> My intent was to do all I can to find ways to try to attract Developers and other Contributors from ALL parts of the World.  Many Users, as well, since some Users become future Developers.
20:11:17 <Fraser_Bell> END
20:11:42 <ddemaio> Short and sweet. Gertjan
20:11:52 <knurpht> I think the board is well aware of the growing communities on the other continents, and has already done quite some things to support new communities, at the same time trying to keep them as close to the project as possible. This f.e. re. The Indonesian community, their domain, who to contact to get things done etc., the decision to send Board members to the openSUSE Asia conference on request of the organizers.
20:14:22 <knurpht> I also think that the things mentioned by others should have the Board's support, but are things that can be initiated without the Board. A goal for the Project as a whole should always be to provide anything useful to make contributing easier, hence to attract more contributors
20:14:24 <knurpht> END
20:14:39 <ddemaio> ok. thank you Gertjan. Simon
20:15:08 <Simotek-Simon> As someone who started out as a user outside Europe and Asia its something i've had a little experience with.
20:15:20 <Simotek-Simon> I think attending conferences where they exist is a really good starting point, last year was the first time openSUSE/SUSE had a presence at linux.conf.au (Australia/NZ) and we had a huge number of people supprised that SUSE / openSUSE still existed and wasn't just a European thing.
20:15:29 <Simotek-Simon> With that in mind expanding / encoraging more people to attend regional conferences to represent openSUSE through the travel support program would likely be a good starting point.
20:15:46 <Mir> ^
20:16:40 <Simotek-Simon> One thing that openSUSE does better then many other distro's is local translations, I think we should continue to encourage users in all these areas to become "developers" in the sense of helping provide better translations, which will then see growth
20:16:40 <Mir> focusing on asia is good but one whould also encourage and support those in other regions to go to events and share their love and excitement for the project
20:17:44 <terrorpup> I have to agree with Mir, it would be nice to see the US and North America grow more, right now the West Coast is the strongest.
20:18:00 <Mir> australia too
20:18:08 <Simotek-Simon> in the end I think it really comes down to finding the already existing users in these areas and encouraging them to help push and grow the project to be bigger in there region. But one of the reasons I went to openSUSE asia summit last year was to help try and grow / support the users that exist in our area.
20:18:10 <Simotek-Simon> END
20:18:16 <knurpht> Mir: there's not much time, please let's stick to a candidates debate.
20:18:30 <Mir> si
20:19:01 <Simotek-Simon> I would say the question could have been equally worded to just outside Europe we could certainly grow more in the US
20:19:02 <ddemaio> Thank you simon. So, there are questions coming in after responses. I would recommend them to be a sidebar conversation to keep the topics flowwing
20:19:43 <ddemaio> next question
20:19:50 <ddemaio> same rotation
20:19:52 <ddemaio> #topic We're trying hard to reach out our communities, in Indonesia alone there are 4,225 members of openSUSE Indonesia facebook group. We use any means that we feel is easiest to communicate to the community. Currently we use Telegram group and it has around 300 users. IRC is good for developer communication, but new generation usually do not use it, they prefer instant messaging like telegram, whatsapp etc
20:19:52 <ddemaio> . How candidates see those messaging systems as a tool for communication?
20:20:22 <ddemaio> aaron
20:21:57 <aluna> for my telegram is the best option without any doubt, the security part that offers above whatsapp is a point in its favor
20:23:03 <aluna> and even more so in these days where information is very committed worldwide
20:23:11 <aluna> END
20:23:20 <ddemaio> ana
20:23:38 <Ana06> I have to say that IRC is complicate even for developers when they first join. I still remember fighting with it when I started at openSUSE haha.
20:24:05 <Ana06> I think it is really important to put the things easy to newcomers and for that it may be needed to use some more modern things, even if we don’t consider them to be perfect. Although IRC is strongly used in openSUSE, so we can not remove it, but we can provide alternatives.
20:24:32 <Ana06> A twitter account for the board and a Telegram group for openSUSE could be helpful. It would really like to discuss with the community what alternatives they would find more useful and would like to join, as a an empty Telegram group doesn’t make much sense ;)
20:24:49 <robin_listas> There is a risk of spreading thin with too many channels
20:24:59 <Ana06> The board seems a good place to start this discussion :)
20:25:03 <Ana06> END
20:25:18 <ddemaio> Gerry
20:25:30 <Fraser_Bell> That is a tough question.  I see platforms such as Facebook as being Anti-Social Media and disseminators of Very Dangerous Disinformation, as well as Threats to Privacy.  However, it is a necessary thing for a Strong openSUSE presence to be on those platforms.  We need to make constructive use of all Communication channels.
20:25:33 <Fraser_Bell> END
20:25:49 <ddemaio> Gertjan
20:26:15 <knurpht> Being the admin for a couple of openSUSE pages, here's my 2 cents: These platforms are great for communication IMO, not for support. Generally speaking everything disappears in an endless, badly searchable stream. This contrary to f.e. forums, wiki, mailing list archives etc.
20:28:27 <knurpht> The nature of our communication IMO is completely different from private conversations. In "my openSUSE" world, I'd rather see everything as open as open can be.
20:28:29 <knurpht> END
20:28:56 <ddemaio> simon
20:30:06 <terrorpup> Looks like Simon Drop
20:30:23 <Fraser_Bell> ... let's wait a bit?
20:30:27 <ddemaio> ok
20:30:30 <foursixnine> One cent: There are means to connect IRC channels to Telegram for example. But those options could be explored later I guess
20:30:46 <sysrich> There's also options like Matrix
20:31:05 <rawtaz> what robin_listas wrote.
20:31:07 <foursixnine> ^ That's the one I'm talking about :) Without suggesting stuff :)
20:31:25 <ddemaio> on you simon
20:31:27 <Simotek> sorry internets playing up
20:31:39 <Simotek> I started using IRC 10+ years ago so i'm used to it but that doesn't mean everyone is.
20:31:51 <Simotek> I think facebook despite its privacy issues is a good tool, because heaps of people are already there, I don't think messaging apps such as whatsapp scale really well to big group chat they are good for organising meetings etc.
20:33:07 <Simotek> For support there are other things we can do to make irc easier for example if you go to enlightenment.org you will find a "talk to us" button which links you into enlightenments support irc channel, you do need to make the people on irc aware that there maybe new people joining who don't necessarily know how irc works so you can't expect them to follow some of the more traditional rules etc
20:34:07 <Simotek> In general I think we just need to do kinda whats been done with Discord and go where the people are, people don't want to join a new service just to be on a project they want to use the things they are already using.
20:34:26 <Simotek> As for telegram its not big here so i've never used it so I can't comment on it.
20:34:26 <Simotek> END
20:34:39 <ddemaio> ok. next question
20:34:41 <ddemaio> #topic I maybe don't have good knowledge about the Board division of work, but from wiki the main task for board are communication facilitator and as point of contact representing community. What all candidates comment about the current condition of all the tasks, how that tasks distribute among the Board members, and what is your plan to improve that condition?
20:34:44 <ddemaio> aaron
20:37:26 <aluna> Definitely, an exhaustive work is needed to improve the information on the board's activities. This is one of the tasks that can be improved so that each member of the openSUSE project understands better the functioning of senior management
20:38:33 <aluna> The communication and above all, the first-hand information is the fundamental part of any directive.
20:38:49 <aluna> END
20:38:52 <ddemaio> ana
20:39:04 <Ana06> I think I also lack knowledge here. ;)
20:39:38 <Ana06> I have no idea about how that tasks distribute among the Board members and I do not know exactly was the board is doing currently
20:39:44 <Ana06> I have already mentioned in my platform and the interviews, that I would like the board to work more transparent.
20:40:27 <Ana06> Things to be done: publishing summaries of the board meetings (which used to be done in the past), updating the wiking
20:40:37 <Ana06> END
20:40:41 <ddemaio> Gerry
20:40:50 <Fraser_Bell> I have not been on the openSUSE Board before, so I do not know what I can accomplish or what effect I can have as a Board Member.
20:40:59 <Fraser_Bell> This comes down to the Communication issue again.  As a long-time openSUSE User and as an openSUSE Member, I have only a vague, general idea of what the Board actually does, although I know the Board Members have and are doing important things for the Project.  I think this is the same understanding the majority of the openSUSE Community has about the Board.
20:41:10 <Fraser_Bell> I will be trying to get the information out to all of the Community what it is the Board does, is doing, and is trying to accomplish, so that the Community can play an active and constructive part in openSUSE decisions and direction.  We need more Community Involvement.
20:41:20 <Fraser_Bell> But, to do so, I need to be elected to that Board, and I need to find out what can be done.
20:41:33 <Fraser_Bell> I do know, however, that being effective on a Board such as this depends primarily on three conditions:  It depends on who the other Board Members are, what motivates them, and on the ability to effectively Communicate ideas and reason to enough of the other Board Members to gain team support for something of importance.
20:41:46 <Fraser_Bell> A respected openSUSE Contributor, Per Jessen, had also asked what I thought I could accomplish as a Member of the Board that I could not already accomplish as just a Community member.
20:41:55 <Fraser_Bell> That is a very good point.
20:42:02 <Fraser_Bell> here are some subtle -- but very important -- differences.
20:42:14 <Fraser_Bell> The title of Board Member would add a little more weight and credibility to what I say and what ideas I put forward.
20:42:25 <Fraser_Bell> More importantly, though, as a Community member, I have more freedom to think about some of these things, maybe dabble at them, and the freedom to lose interest for awhile and wander away to other things in life for a week or a month or two, or even longer.  I could easily step into the Recording Studio for two or three months and absorb myself there, maybe even after a month or so of first isolating myself into a creative
20:42:25 <Fraser_Bell> music composing session, completely forgetting about openSUSE during that time.
20:42:43 <Fraser_Bell> However, by accepting a candidacy to be elected to a two-year term as a Board Member, I am making a commitment to the openSUSE Project.  If elected to the Board, I would be Obligated to concentrate on improving the openSUSE Project for the next two years, giving up the freedom to just wander away.
20:42:49 <Fraser_Bell> END
20:42:54 <ddemaio> Gertjan
20:43:52 <knurpht> Let me start with a quote from the wiki pages re. the Board: "The board should provide guidance and support existing governance structures, but shouldn't direct or control development, since community mechanisms exist to accomplish the goals of the project"
20:47:45 <knurpht> This line IMHO is essential. The openSUSE Board is not some kind of senior management, nor a governing and decision making body, it's tasks are well described. If the cummunity wants that changed, the Board will always respect those wishes.
20:48:41 <knurpht> Furthermore I would like to state that I see ( and have experienced ) the Board as a team, where everything done is a team effort.
20:48:45 <knurpht> END
20:49:13 <ddemaio> simon
20:49:30 <Simotek> I think the current board in its current condition has done a really good job so I don't see the need to change or do much different here, maybe other then communicating a little more with the project but this doesn't need to be much more then publishing / sharing the minutes to the project (with any sensitive parts that shouldn't be public removed). Beyond that the current model seems to be working well atleast to me and is something
20:49:30 <Simotek> i'd like to be a part of working with.
20:49:47 <Simotek> I'm not applying to join the board because I think it or the project needs radical changes but because I think its done a good job and I think that I have the right set of skills to continue helping it do that job so its just another way that I can help contribute to / support the project
20:49:50 <Simotek> END
20:50:36 <ddemaio> ok. Great. I'm going to jump to quesiton 2
20:50:49 <ddemaio> #topic Question 2  - What's your opinion about mailing list moderation?
20:51:01 <ddemaio> aaron
20:51:56 <aluna> We must understand that regulations are necessary in every aspect of our lives and in the case of mailing list is not the exception.
20:52:27 <aluna> In any sense, we can have concerns and express them but it is necessary to make it clear that the way in which we address ourselves on our mailing lists is the most appropriate and that can be achieved with a moderator.
20:53:01 <aluna> We can express our ideas, but it is necessary to have a theoretical framework that allows us to take an adequate line in our mailing lists and as a result, moderate the way we conduct ourselves in these lists.
20:53:14 <aluna> END
20:53:25 <ddemaio> ana
20:53:42 <Ana06> In my opinion the mailing list shouldn't be moderated at all, to ensure everybody giving his opinion (excluding spam and things like that).
20:54:14 <Ana06> there is no moderator more neutral than no moderatol at all ;)
20:54:16 <Ana06> END
20:54:20 <ddemaio> gerry
20:54:27 <Fraser_Bell> I see far too many mails in the lists that do not belong there and should not be there.  When I am following a topic, as soon as it reaches the stage where enough is enough, I usually just select all the remaining mails in that topic thread and hit shift-delete.
20:54:37 <Fraser_Bell> I do the same for any future mails from that topic, and I am probably not alone.
20:54:48 <Fraser_Bell> So, if anyone is looking for any legitimate answers to legitimate questions, they are better off to start a new topic thread than to hang onto the end of one that has gone off the rails.
20:54:58 <Fraser_Bell> I think that is about as much as can be done for mailing list moderation.
20:55:05 <Fraser_Bell> How would you moderate it?  What would you do to moderate it?  Once the writer hits send, the mail is gone out to all recipients.  You cannot delete it from the recipients' mailbox, even if it is an unacceptable post.
20:55:16 <Fraser_Bell> I do not see how you could even ban someone from the mailing list, if such an action was warranted.
20:55:27 <Fraser_Bell> For example, I can have almost an unlimited number of e-mail addresses from, at the very least, 10 different domains, probably more.  It would be impossible to block them all.
20:55:38 <Fraser_Bell> I would like the mailing lists held to the standards of our guiding principles, but I do not think that is a practical possibility, other than by the rest of us calling the offenders out.
20:55:43 <Fraser_Bell> END
20:55:48 <ddemaio> gertjan
20:56:22 <knurpht> Being a board member, my personal opinion doesn’t really count, what counts is what the community wants. If general concensus is that we should have some kind of moderation in the ML’s, the Board should and would help to get such going, regardless of personal opinions of indivual Board members.
20:56:42 <knurpht> Apart from that, and since I wrote about this in my platform, I’d love to see the ML’s return to what they’re described to be meant for: opensuse@ for support, opensuse-factory@ for technical discussions. But, as I said, that’s up to the community, not the Board.
20:56:45 <knurpht> END
20:56:49 <ddemaio> simon
20:57:09 <Simotek> unfortunatly at times I think its neccesary to keep the project flowing and sane for contributors, as someone who uses the mailing lists alot and reads most things on the development lists, i've seen that when lots of "support" or "off topic" questions start coming onto the factory mailing list the people who should be reading the list start to stop which is not helpful. Having said that in the last year there has probably been a
20:57:09 <Simotek> little less offtopic but more support questions there.
20:58:12 <Simotek> I stopped following the support mailing list closely long ago because there is simply too much traffic for me to read every reply every day for example
20:59:15 <Simotek> We have policies on what our mailing lists should be used for and I think we should continue to enforce these as needed, starting with giving people gentle reminders of what is and isn't acceptable.
20:59:16 <Simotek> END
20:59:17 <ddemaio> Last question.
20:59:22 <ddemaio> #topic Question 7 - What do you believe will be the biggest challenge for the openSUSE Project in the next five years?
20:59:28 <ddemaio> aaron
21:00:08 <aluna> The great challenge for the openSUSE project for the next five years is to consolidate itself as the best FOSS development community
21:00:36 <aluna> we have taken very firm steps but there is still a way to go and also things to learn
21:00:58 <aluna> the daily learning is the fundamental part and as a project we must learn from the mistakes to turn them into strengths
21:01:29 <aluna> If we learn from these mistakes and understand how to turn them into strengths, the openSUSE project will have a solid base and that will allow us to become a new and renewed project.
21:01:36 <aluna> END
21:01:39 <ddemaio> ana
21:01:44 <Ana06> Really difficult question… 5 years is a lot of time…
21:02:06 <Fraser_Bell> (for you, maybe ... youngster)
21:03:17 <Ana06> hahaha ;)
21:03:48 * sysrich realises he's been on the Board for 5 years since March..
21:04:11 <Fraser_Bell> Ana's answer?
21:04:12 <knurpht> sysrich: ROTFL
21:04:19 <Ana06> I am thinking!
21:04:33 <Ana06> I have mentioned in the interviews that I have heard some people disappointed or demotivated with people.
21:04:40 <Sleep_Walker> sysrich: really? who voted for you? ;b
21:05:01 <Fraser_Bell> ... please let Ana answer uninterrupted.
21:05:40 <Ana06> I have mentioned in the interviews that I have heard some people disappointed or demotivated in openSUSE***
21:06:11 <Ana06> In the same line, as I am quite involved in the mentoring of new developers in openSUSE, I have also realised that there is less people interesting in getting involved mentoring.
21:06:52 <Ana06> To the point for example that it was considered that openSUSE doesn't participate in GSoC this year.
21:07:25 <Ana06> I think attracting new contributors and keeping the current one motivated is a huge and important challenge
21:07:59 <Ana06> so I doubt there would be something more important (even in 5 years hahaha)
21:08:29 <Ana06> BTW, now that many people is reading, if someone is interessting in helping with mentoring please contact me ;)
21:08:33 <Ana06> END
21:08:38 <ddemaio> gerry
21:08:49 <Fraser_Bell> Gaining and keeping enough Developers and other Contributors to improve and advance.  This challenge is the main one facing All FOSS Projects.
21:08:50 <Fraser_Bell> END
21:08:56 <ddemaio> gertjan
21:10:36 <knurpht> Now that we ( the community ) have established quite a steady situation with Tumbleweed - SLE - Leap, OBS, and openQA, I think the biggest challenge might be to not lean back, but to actively keep looking for improvement, new input, new contributors, to keep reinventing ourselves as a project
21:10:44 <knurpht> END
21:10:58 <ddemaio> simon
21:11:37 <Simotek> I agree with what some of the others have said, without contributors the project doesn't exist, without new contributors the project likely wont expand its scope much and will slowly start to fade
21:13:29 <Simotek> beside that I think as was mentioned in the first couple of questions there are many parts of the world in which openSUSE isn't very present and a real challenge for the project will be to start to engage with these areas which hopefully over time will lead to more users and in turn developers
21:14:56 <Simotek> another challenge for a global project such as ours is how do we encourage / engage / support developers who can't speak english, right now if you can't speak english i'm guessing openSUSE isn't an easy project to contribute to, fixing this is a huge challenge.
21:14:57 <Simotek> END
21:15:00 <Fraser_Bell> BTW: I definitely agree with Ana's point about the need for Mentoring.  I would be a lot farther along as a Developer if I had someone with the devotion to lead the way.
21:15:11 <ddemaio> Ok. I want to personally thank the candidates and wish you all the best of luck in the coming elections. Thank you everyone for attending. I will now close the debate and post the results to the opensuse-project mailing list.
21:15:40 <ddemaio> Thank you all.
21:15:41 <ddemaio> #endmeeting