15:01:25 <sysrich> #startmeeting openSUSE Project Meeting 15:01:25 <bugbot> Meeting started Wed Oct 29 15:01:25 2014 UTC. The chair is sysrich. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:01:25 <bugbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 15:01:31 <sysrich> #char robjo 15:01:34 <sysrich> #chair robjo 15:01:34 <bugbot> Current chairs: robjo sysrich 15:02:08 <sysrich> The current Agenda is at https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Project_meeting - not exactly jam packed, if anyone has any last minute additions, edit the wiki :) 15:02:19 <sysrich> #Topic Action Items Review 15:02:46 <robjo> There were no action items from the last meeting 15:02:48 <sysrich> I don't see any action items outstanding from the last meeting minutes, but I didn't make the meeting. Is there anything people consider 'open' from the last or recent openSUSE project meetings? 15:03:17 <sysrich> Well that makes it simple enough then.. moving on.. 15:03:26 <sysrich> #topic Tumbleweed 15:03:56 <sysrich> I put this in there, because I figured there might be some discussion about the recent announcement to merge the Factory and Tumbleweed rolling release - does anyone have any questions about what's going on? 15:05:34 * mrdocs waves 15:05:50 <sysrich> mrdocs: good morning! do you have a question, or just saying hello? :) 15:06:00 <mrdocs> just saying hello :) 15:08:04 <sysrich> Okay, well, I'm judging by the broad silence and the tumbleweeds floating by, no one has any questions about the decision to rejig our rolling releases... I'll give another 30 seconds or so in case someone is just being shy and not speaking up :) 15:09:53 <henne> sysrich: I only have a couple of comments on the execution :) 15:09:54 <sysrich> Okay then.. 15:10:00 <sysrich> henne: go ahead :) 15:11:32 <henne> is there a reason why this wasn't really discussed on -factory? 15:13:03 <henne> respectively I'm asking myself why this wasn't brought forward on news@ 15:13:41 <tigerfoot> henne: it was no https://news.opensuse.org/2014/10/24/tumbleweed-factory-rolling-releases-to-merge/ 15:13:51 <henne> that's the result yes 15:13:57 <henne> no discussion 15:14:45 <sysrich> tigerfoot: yes but henne does have a point, me and Douglas did not follow the proper procedure of actually discussing it with the news team before announcing it, and it has been kind of unconventional how this all came about in the first place 15:14:53 <sysrich> I'm happy to explain the circumstances though 15:14:59 <henne> you should 15:15:01 <ancorgs> I agree with henne, everything seemed to simply happen overnight (and sure that was not really the case) 15:15:03 <henne> :) 15:15:54 * tigerfoot okay .. the discussing internal news team part was hidden procedural part :-) 15:16:02 <sysrich> first, the not mailing news@ bit first - mea culpa - the decision to announce the merger was actually made some days before the post on news.o.o, but a lot of the final decisions, agreement from Greg, etc, came and clashed with my travel to openSUSE summit 15:17:09 <henne> It's just sad that this was pushed out without thinking about anything 15:17:16 <sysrich> so, I ended up announcing it at Summit, and then we played catch up by announcing it on news.o.o when I got back from behind the Great Firewall of China. It's not ideal, and actually I thought news@ had been involved before we pulled the trigger with the post - but I didn't double check that myself, so I'm sorry to the news team 15:17:24 <henne> it could have had a ton more impact 15:17:37 <henne> just by involving people 15:18:13 <henne> well no need to be sorry for the news team. be sorry for this announcement :) 15:18:37 <sysrich> not sorry FOR the news team, sorry to them :) they should have been more involved 15:18:48 <gmanu> Hi 15:18:56 <sysrich> gmanu: Hi 15:19:04 <gmanu> I am manugupt1 by the way 15:19:10 <henne> sysrich: next time, stick to the process 15:19:29 <gmanu> Regarding news team, I dont know if it will matter a lot or not for making announcements or discussing with the news team 15:19:39 <sysrich> henne: Yes, I intend to 15:19:51 <gmanu> because WE DO NOT review articles 15:20:06 <gmanu> We miss posting articles when someone else asks to 15:20:08 <henne> because if we would have made a propper announcement. with propoer content, proper notification to the press 15:20:12 <henne> propoer press-kit 15:20:23 <henne> proper FAQ 15:20:36 <henne> proper timing 15:20:47 <gmanu> henne: When was such stuff discussed 15:20:49 <gmanu> last 15:20:56 <gmanu> Lets get realistic over here 15:20:58 <henne> this could have easily been on of the greatest announcements we ever did 15:21:26 <gmanu> ancorgs: had to literally go on marketing and project mailing list to ask for more help with his articles 15:21:35 <gmanu> and then people came to help in 15:21:39 <ancorgs> well, I see where henne wants to go and I completely agree that the timing was really non-optimal. But I'm not sure if our current "marketing" machinery is as good as he believes 15:21:51 <gmanu> ancorgs: +1 15:22:09 <sysrich> I'm not unhappy with how well the announcement has been received, how far it's spread, how people seem to have picked up the message, but I do agree with henne we could do better, but I also see it's going to take us a little time to get there 15:22:25 <ancorgs> gmanu: yes, and all I got was an English proof read by plinnell (thanks a lot) 15:22:39 <sysrich> SUSE have hired Douglas DeMaio to help us out in that area, but he's got to learn to, so I consider henne's feedback as good 'lessons learned' from this 15:22:47 * plinnell nods 15:22:58 <gmanu> sysrich: I am not saying people should learn 15:23:16 <gmanu> I am pointing to the fact that there is something fundamentally flawed with the news and marketing team 15:23:24 <ancorgs> I wrote almost every single word of the 13.2 release announcement and, taking into account that I don't consider myself part of the marketing team, that is not optimal 15:23:25 <gmanu> We need to fix that before talking about process 15:23:28 <henne> ancorgs, gmanu: if I would have seen a mail on news@ I would have dropped everything and worked on this 15:23:48 <henne> yes we have not too many people 15:23:54 <henne> yes they are not too responsive 15:24:06 <henne> is that a reason to just ignore everyone? no 15:24:21 <ancorgs> henne: no, I agree with your main point 15:24:39 <gmanu> henne: if we had access to archives for news@oo 15:24:41 <ancorgs> all I say is that maybe you was a little bit optimistic in the expectations :-) 15:25:01 <henne> ancorgs: I'm perfect aware of how it is :) 15:25:01 <gmanu> We can easily find out how many articles we as a news team ignore 15:25:02 <henne> still 15:25:03 <ancorgs> about press kit, FAQ and all that 15:25:19 <henne> I would have worked on this immediately 15:25:24 <henne> but I didn't have the chance 15:25:45 <henne> I would have, if sysrich would have gone through the proper process 15:25:51 <sysrich> I think it's fair to say we know we have improvements to make in this area, we've got a guy who's now paid to help in this area, I think we're on the right track - but people (like me) doing stupid stuff like bypassing news@ out of convenience doesn't help, I think that's henne's point, and I agree with it 15:25:52 <henne> :-) 15:25:53 <ancorgs> and I know henne would have done a great job, as he did when we "announced" factory as rollling 15:26:29 <gmanu> sysrich: again.. having a paid guy does not solve the problem of getting people involved 15:26:35 <henne> sysrich: guess who's training Douglas BTW :-Ü 15:26:42 <henne> guess who trained Jos 15:26:51 <henne> ... 15:26:53 <henne> anyway 15:27:01 <sysrich> henne: let me guess - he's started ignoring everything I'm telling him and doing what he thinks is best...so, I guess you're spending too much time with him ;) 15:27:03 <henne> that was only one remark I had 15:27:10 <henne> what about the discussion on -factory? 15:27:49 <ancorgs> Having a person payed by SUSE is just a patch. The release is big enough for not needing "a payed guy" behind. And look what is happening this time :-( 15:28:01 <henne> ancorgs: it happened every time 15:28:19 <henne> in the end it was always me or Jos 15:28:51 <gmanu> henne: I asked news team for press support for openSUSE Asia Summit 15:28:52 <henne> and who cares who pays our salary. we don't :) 15:28:56 <gmanu> Did not get a single review 15:29:04 <gmanu> I just checked that between 15:29:19 <ancorgs> we are mixing two discussiong (mainly my fault) 15:29:36 <henne> gmanu: what has that to do with this discussion? 15:29:38 <ancorgs> let's focus on the merge and let's go back to marketing status afterward 15:30:03 <gmanu> cool.. 15:30:29 <sysrich> okay, back to the merge "Why wasn't this discussed on -factory" - I could write a really long story here, but I'm going to try my best to keep it succinct. The short version is I and others realised that the roadmap for Tumbleweed was effectively a 'dead end' 15:30:37 <robjo> I thought he merge discussion was done, henne is right, sysrich knows better and will not go astray again ;) 15:33:19 <sysrich> I was really worried about 5000 users, who'd find their rolling release screeching to a halt with the release of 13.2 because GregKH has already decided that he wouldn't be continuing Tumbleweed as an add-on repo ontop of our regular rolling release. So, I got chatting with the 'key' people involved, Factory maintainers, leading contributors, GregKH, to try and find a way to bring the Tumbleweed and Factory rolling releases together to 15:33:19 <sysrich> handle the otherwise 'death of Tumbleweed' in a nice way for everyone 15:34:10 <sysrich> If we had more time before the release of 13.2, sure, I would have, and should have, probably opened up the discussion to the whole of the -factory ML, but we were short on time, and we don't always open up every major change to the distribution to those kind of broad discussions 15:35:04 <henne> well, I would like to disagree. We at least tell our peers before we make it so... 15:35:35 <sysrich> and you think we didn't do that here? 15:35:36 <ancorgs> probably the merge was out of question (and my feeling is that most people is happy about it), but I would have prefered to have a voice on the timing 15:36:06 <sysrich> ancorgs well, you still do - whats your opinion on the timing? 15:36:12 <henne> sysrich: where did you? 15:37:13 <ancorgs> making it collide with the release is making everything messy. I cannot see the downsides of doing it some weeks later 15:37:38 <ancorgs> from the communication point of view, at least 15:37:39 <sysrich> henne: the announcement and my FAQ/opening discussion post on the -factory ML which, while late, explicitly invited people to discuss, ask questions, etc 15:38:20 <henne> sysrich: the announcement says: with the tested, user-ready rolling release assuming the name Tumbleweed from Nov. 4 15:38:23 <henne> done deal 15:38:37 <sysrich> ancorgs: waiting until after the release is messy from a current-Tumbleweed user point of view, as the 13.2 Release will 'zero' their Tumbleweed repositories and never fill them again 15:38:39 <henne> and since when does our community work over announcements? 15:38:42 <henne> I mean really 15:38:50 <henne> I find this disturbing 15:39:29 <sysrich> we don't normally, true, so you think we should have drawn the thing out, discussed, acted later? 15:39:49 <henne> even if you have these time constraints 15:39:53 <ancorgs> but tumbleweed repositories are not filled everyday, isn't? I'm not a Tumbleweed user but in my understanding, getting "new things on top of the released version" only makes sense some time after that version is released 15:40:07 <henne> and even if this is supported by all key stakeholders 15:40:52 * coolo still wants nothing to do with it 15:41:07 <ancorgs> so there is a window of time there (between the release and tumbleweed being notice as more stalled than usual) 15:41:17 <henne> you at least write a mail to -factory saying: Hey we $people, going to do..., because of.... 15:41:31 <ancorgs> *noticed 15:41:32 <henne> in as much advance as you can 15:41:41 <sysrich> henne: that's a fair point, true 15:41:53 <henne> even if it's not fully hashed out yet 15:42:07 <sysrich> ancorgs: the 'Tumbleweed to zero' has been a pain point for every Tumbleweed user during every openSUSE release since Tumbleweed started 15:42:17 <sysrich> ancorgs: you can probably find quite some -factory threads on it :) 15:42:40 <coolo> sysrich: because they are forced to switch to a different version at that time 15:42:47 <coolo> exactly what will happen now 15:43:01 <coolo> you don't ease their pain at all 15:43:09 <coolo> you just add more pain for every factory user 15:43:12 <henne> you see what will happen when you talk about your intentions? 15:43:20 <henne> you give people the chance to chime in 15:45:25 <henne> alright 15:45:31 <henne> enough grilling 15:45:38 <sysrich> coolo: technically, you're correct, but every Tumbleweed user I've spoken to is excited about this, and I think we're doing a pretty good job at keeping the pain for factory users to a minimum 15:45:39 * henne hugs sysrich 15:45:43 <henne> just do better next time 15:46:44 <sysrich> henne: you know me, you know how I normally operate, I'm willing to accept my failings, but don't worry, I haven't forgotten how we normally work - just took some different routes for the sake of speed and timing this time 15:46:57 <coolo> sysrich: so where is your wiki plan - http://en.opensuse.org/Portal:Factory will need a complete overhaul 15:47:16 <henne> sysrich: yes. never do that again 15:47:47 <sysrich> coolo: it'll be done if I have to do it myself or die trying 15:48:24 <plinnell> move on ? 15:48:40 <gmanu> yeah.. 15:48:53 <sysrich> #topic Any Other Business 15:49:01 <sysrich> Okay then, anything else? 15:49:06 <gmanu> sysrich: the topic which I touched earlier 15:49:12 <gmanu> marketing and news 15:49:44 <gmanu> One of the problems with the news team is well people do not respond to others request 15:49:59 <gmanu> It basically means people in news team will post just what they want to 15:50:00 <henne> there are no people, really 15:50:09 <gmanu> henne: if there are none 15:50:26 <sysrich> what happened to holden87? 15:50:51 <gmanu> So if there are no people how do we fix it 15:50:59 <sysrich> find people? 15:51:08 <gmanu> Well news@oo is a private list 15:51:18 <gmanu> and there are really no press discussions on it 15:51:25 <henne> gmanu: c'mon. not this discussion again 15:51:34 <ancorgs> is not only about "a news team". Is about almost everything beyond packaging in the project 15:51:44 <gmanu> ancorgs: Yes 15:52:03 <gmanu> What I am suggesting is to unify our infrastructures 15:52:07 <henne> but we'll only fix specific parts with specific actions 15:52:14 <henne> so let's stick to the news team 15:52:26 <gmanu> I am talking about marketing and news here because 15:52:36 <gmanu> news was formed by splitting marketing 15:52:46 <gmanu> Why not merge them and see the effects 15:52:52 <gmanu> news is a failure already 15:52:59 <gmanu> we might just as well be other failures 15:53:01 <sysrich> gmanu: 0+0 = 0 15:53:04 <henne> gmanu: merge them? 15:53:10 <henne> what do you mean? 15:53:25 <gmanu> henne: opensuse-marketing list and news list should be one 15:53:30 <gmanu> sysrich: it is not 0 and 0 15:53:31 <henne> ... 15:53:40 <gmanu> sysrich: one marketing list has more members 15:53:54 <gmanu> and so the opportunity to contribute is more 15:54:02 <gmanu> so we will be better off 15:54:17 <gmanu> instead of getting new contributors 15:54:21 <gmanu> we go to them now 15:54:28 <gmanu> people who are already there 15:54:39 <gmanu> it needs to be a slow continuous process but it will work I am sure 15:54:54 <robjo> gmanu: ARe you proposing to discuss news publically before it is public? 15:55:02 <gmanu> robjo: yes 15:55:11 <gmanu> Because it does not really matter 15:55:19 <gmanu> If people are not discussing news 15:55:26 <sysrich> gmanu: didn't we discuss this 6 months ago? 15:55:33 <robjo> Then lets not have news, as they are no longer news, 15:55:39 <henne> http://paste.opensuse.org/view/raw/87009269 15:55:42 <slk021> we had a openSUSE News Survey 15:55:57 <henne> my previous answer to you previous suggestion to marge the lists 15:55:59 <henne> merge* 15:56:04 <robjo> sysrich: yes, this discussion is like a bad penny or dare I say the discussion about systemd ;) 15:56:13 <gmanu> henne: well we are not 15:56:19 <gmanu> getting support 15:56:29 <gmanu> Well if I ask news team for press support 15:56:31 <gmanu> I did not get it 15:56:47 <gmanu> and then we have no one in the news team 15:56:51 <henne> and that's a problem we should fix 15:56:59 <gmanu> How do we do that? 15:57:06 <henne> we're discussing your fix 15:57:31 <gmanu> discussing.. where? 15:57:44 <henne> Get Douglas up to speed. Have him talk to people asking him to join 15:57:53 <henne> would be my suggestions 15:57:54 <sysrich> Okay, hold up - I'd like to go back a bit and pick up on something ancorgs said. I have an opinion on ancors point that outside of packaging, other areas of community activity seem lacking 15:57:54 <henne> -s 15:58:08 <henne> gmanu: right here. right now 15:58:37 <henne> having a plan on how to do this 15:58:49 <henne> having rules and dokumentation about it 15:58:50 <gmanu> henne: lets discuss this I will like to fix this area by area 15:58:51 <henne> train people 15:58:55 <sysrich> I think it's fair to say that in the last year or so, non-technical enthusiasm from openSUSE contributors has been lower than we're used to. We could go into lots of discussion as to why, but I dont think that's very productive, fact is, we are where we are and we have to get better from here. 15:59:39 <henne> that would be my plan for the news team 15:59:55 <gmanu> henne: and how to find new contributors 16:00:02 <gmanu> that is something we should consider too 16:00:32 <sysrich> I'd like to ask that people stop expecting things right now to be 'like they used to be' and accept how they are right now - non-technical contributors are sometimes harder to keep, motivate, energise - it's not like packaging where there's always something new to work on. Lets focus on positive ways on how we can get more people involved, and make the people we have involved more active and encouraged 16:00:36 <henne> Douglas (as "leader") talks to specific people who have shown an interest and talent to write, asking him them join 16:00:59 <plinnell> has the discussion of merging news and marketing finished or decided ? 16:01:02 <henne> asking *them* to join. sorry 16:01:28 <ancorgs> I think that it have never worked beyond jos and henne. Last two releases worked because jos was full-time writing and pushing people. Not really because we were an enthusiastic community :-/ 16:01:43 <gmanu> ancorgs: you should see it this way 16:01:48 <henne> Jos was the enthusiastic community 16:01:49 <gmanu> 1. Release - Henne and Jos 16:01:51 <henne> I'm the enthusiastic community 16:01:53 <gmanu> 2. GSoC - Me 16:01:59 <gmanu> 3. Conference - Jos 16:02:01 <henne> what's the problem? 16:02:01 <sysrich> ancorgs: in the past we had marketing hackathons where we had a good number of people involved 16:02:11 <gmanu> 4. Education - education team 16:02:15 <henne> sysrich: resulting in nothing really 16:02:23 <gmanu> and then you find everyone is doing what everyone is interested in 16:02:25 <gmanu> but not as a tem 16:02:56 <henne> and the education team should take care of the marketing of it 16:03:07 <henne> the news team will help them making their content great 16:03:18 <gmanu> henne: that is the ideal case 16:03:21 <henne> teaching them how, when, where to do it 16:03:26 <gmanu> henne: ok.. 16:03:36 <gmanu> henne and douglas I am up for a wiki page 16:03:41 <gmanu> or anything like that 16:03:49 <sysrich> henne: hey, I worked really hard on all those GNOME articles tyvm.. I think we need to be careful about dismissing the hard work people do - if it's not filling the gaps we need, then I think we need to do a better job of identifying those gaps.. but it really is demoralising when people here the stuff they've been working on is 'nothing really' 16:03:52 <gmanu> or rules and doc which help us do better 16:04:02 <plinnell> sysrich: maybe a marketing/news hackathon should be part of the mini-summit ? 16:04:52 <henne> sysrich: fair enough 16:05:02 <sysrich> plinnell: given it's in the West Coast of the USA and most of our marketing/news people are no where near there.. I dont think the budget will stretch that far. but a marketing/news hackathon does sound like a good idea, get people together, sort this out 16:05:12 * plinnell nods 16:05:21 <gmanu> mini summit? 16:05:25 <gmanu> When is it :/ 16:05:25 <plinnell> perhaps in NUE 16:05:29 <henne> gmanu: like I said. having a plan on how to do this. having rules and docu about it. train people 16:05:42 <plinnell> gmanu: in LAX as a part of SCALEX 16:05:47 <gmanu> henne: lets discuss this at news@oo. 16:05:56 <gmanu> plinnell: I plan to attend SCALE as part of openSUSE 16:06:01 <plinnell> https://www.socallinuxexpo.org/scale13x 16:06:02 <gmanu> so I can help you over there 16:06:11 <plinnell> gmanu: cool, im already booked as well 16:06:28 <plinnell> suse will have a 'secondary' presence too 16:06:37 <plinnell> not to take away from openSUSE 16:06:56 <gmanu> plinnell: can you take this discussion opensuse-marketing 16:07:00 <gmanu> and it will be great 16:07:01 <plinnell> the local team there is excellent 16:07:13 <plinnell> for sure, im on the list 16:07:14 <henne> gmanu: I'm currently trying to get douglas up to speed. then take it from there 16:07:28 <sysrich> and henne's doing a good job at that 16:07:44 <henne> yup 16:07:49 <gmanu> henne: cool.. thanks a lot.. but once he is upto speed, lets discuss on the news list 16:08:03 <henne> he has all the tools in his belt. he knows writing 16:08:15 * plinnell needs to jump 16:08:18 <henne> he just doesn't know all the software etc. etc. 16:08:32 <henne> gmanu: for sure :) 16:08:48 <coolo> plinnell: the fate of the little poeple - they need to jump to be seen 16:08:50 <gmanu> henne: cool.. bye for now everyone 16:09:00 <plinnell> coolo: lol 16:09:53 <ancorgs> my 16:09:57 <sysrich> Okay, any other topics to discuss? This meeting has gone for over an hour :) 16:10:08 <ancorgs> just one last point about it 16:10:27 <ancorgs> I would like to call everybody to fill https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Major_features 16:10:46 <ancorgs> I still miss a lot of information (btrfs, snapper, wicked, more about the kernel, development tools), 16:10:50 <sysrich> #info Please help fill in the Major Features wiki page for 13.2 at https://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Major_features 16:10:53 <ancorgs> ven if it's already late for using that information in the release announcement or the press kit, I think that filling it is still worth it 16:11:14 <robjo> #info Board elections are coming up, we need Election committee volunteers and candidates, see the announcement on -project 16:11:26 <sysrich> ancorgs: okay, will do 16:13:19 <sysrich> Anything else? 16:15:23 <sysrich> #endmeeting