15:01:54 <vuntz> #startmeeting openSUSE Project Meeting
15:01:54 <bugbot> Meeting started Wed Dec 11 15:01:54 2013 UTC.  The chair is vuntz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:01:54 <bugbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
15:01:54 <differentreality> hey
15:02:39 * robjo arrived
15:03:14 <vuntz> Ilmehtar, ilmehtar_, FunkyPenguin, awafaa: here?
15:03:38 <Ilmehtar> vuntz: yes I'm here, but my IRC window is currently at 90 degrees
15:03:52 * Ilmehtar has been playing with screen rotation
15:04:00 <vuntz> iirc, we had completed all the action items, so nothing to review
15:04:04 <vuntz> and we have two topics on the agenda:
15:04:09 <vuntz> Q&A about openSUSE 2016
15:04:11 <vuntz> oSC15 ideas about finding a location
15:04:17 * vuntz double-checks for the action items
15:04:20 <|miska|> Ilmehtar: Time to go to bed to make it better readable :-)
15:04:51 <vuntz> right, there was nothing left
15:05:38 <vuntz> so let's move straight to the big topic
15:05:43 <vuntz> #topic Q&A about openSUSE 2016
15:06:16 <vuntz> cwh: ping? :-)
15:06:34 <cwh> I just notified tocalix ;)
15:06:53 <cwh> Just a second
15:07:28 * Bille waves
15:07:37 <vuntz> ola Bille
15:07:40 <vuntz> and toscalix_
15:07:43 <toscalix_> hi
15:08:28 <awafaa> vuntz sorry I'm on the school run atm
15:08:59 <robjo> awafaa: don't run and type ;)
15:09:04 <vuntz> so should we just have questions, or is there anyone who wants to do a quick intro?
15:09:16 <Ilmehtar> (for those who might have missed the topic set- The current topic is "Q&A about openSUSE 2016")
15:09:34 <toscalix_> I would like to do a short intro
15:09:38 <toscalix_> if I can
15:09:40 <vuntz> sure
15:10:05 * tigerfoot highlight short :-)
15:10:10 <|miska|> :-)
15:10:14 <ancorgs> :-)
15:10:19 <coolo> quite an audience today
15:10:33 <toscalix_> first apologize for the selected approach of sending separate mails apparently unconnected in some way. Probably doing something like this: http://lizards.opensuse.org/2013/12/11/discussing-about-the-future-of-opensuse/
15:10:43 <toscalix_> from the very beginning would have helped
15:10:48 <Bille> coolo: there was more of a warmup act than usual
15:10:49 <toscalix_> a lot
15:11:55 <toscalix_> second. we are processing the feedback and we will try to summarize it and send some modified proposals when we have them
15:12:32 <toscalix_> there is one article missing that contains some info about the effort and time we propose to put on this
15:12:35 <toscalix_> that's all
15:12:42 <toscalix_> done
15:13:43 <toscalix_> thanks vuntz
15:14:14 <tigerfoot> toscalix_: a rough estimate for the delay ? between one day, one week, one month ?
15:14:57 <toscalix_> tigerfoot: yes, but please read it in the article ;-)
15:15:13 <toscalix_> it will be there
15:15:23 <toscalix_> together with other info
15:15:42 <|miska|> tigerfoot: Aka before we publish the next thing and before we publish new mails with feedback incorporated?
15:16:14 <|miska|> s/and/or/
15:16:43 <ancorgs> I guess tigerfoot is asking about the delay for publishing that article
15:16:58 <toscalix_> I know ;-)
15:17:32 * tigerfoot see only "in three years" date/delay related things in the lizard article :-)
15:17:59 <manugupt1> Can I ask something?
15:18:00 <Bille> the 2016 vision is rather limited
15:18:04 <toscalix_> I would love to send everything this week
15:18:11 * tigerfoot can accept, when its done, that's just a debian way of doing things :-)
15:18:21 <Bille> manugupt1: sure
15:18:27 <Bille> don't ask to ask...
15:18:33 <manugupt1> I see 7 proposals
15:18:39 <coolo> tigerfoot: you're talking about 13.2 release delay?
15:19:01 <manugupt1> While the openSUSE team asks for time to process our feedback, we are expected to give a knee jerk response, kind of unfair
15:19:18 <tigerfoot> coolo: no no just about the feedback and future action plans summary promised mail...
15:19:28 <manugupt1> I am not pointing fingers
15:19:34 <manugupt1> but I am saying we also need some time
15:19:42 <manugupt1> atleast me
15:19:58 <toscalix_> manugupt1: I am working on the assumption that we will be talking the following weeks about all this
15:20:07 <toscalix_> at least
15:20:46 <manugupt1> there are few things I loved.. few things I did not like
15:20:52 <toscalix_> obviously we want to go back to execution as soon as possible, but some things needs time to be discussed and we want to have that time
15:21:00 <toscalix_> so we need also to provide it
15:21:29 <Ilmehtar> I would just like to express my..discomfort, at the feeling that all of these proposals (some of which appear to be more interconnected than others) have all been pre-planned out and are being released at some predetermined schedule.
15:21:40 <Ilmehtar> The approach feels 'alien' to me, I'm much more used to seeing new ideas be presented at that initial 'idea' stage, and then iterated, each step including feedback. This whole 'data dump' on the community, with a relatively brief window for feedback, followed by your 'analysis' and another future 'data dump' where you report on your findings seems
15:21:40 <Ilmehtar> very..'weird' to me
15:22:07 <Bille> my .2c: of the smaller proposals, 1-7, most are fine, common sense approaches to improving our infrastructure and process
15:22:28 <Ilmehtar> Maybe artificial is a better word. And I see huge potential for mistakes to be made, incorrect conclusions to be made, will the community be given any opportunity to provide corrections if your analysis is wrong? ultimately I feel this whole approach doesn't seem very open for community engagement.
15:23:00 <robjo> ilmehtar: +1
15:23:02 <Bille> however the 2016 vision is limited, unspecific and full of 'apple pie' items that we don't need 2 years to do.
15:23:10 <Bille> better to leave it out if you have no vision
15:24:01 <Bille> err, i'm in my civvies aren't I?
15:24:10 <toscalix_> Bille: can you write a mail about it? Maybe we can provide some answers to your points that clarifies something
15:24:39 <robjo> Apparently we have reached a point where only 1 thing can be done at a time, either discuss stuff, i.e. "data dump" or "execute", i.e. don't communicate and just work
15:25:00 <robjo> fits in the "black or white" operating mode of some people, I guess
15:25:33 <toscalix_> robjo: that is your perception and we do not share it
15:25:34 <wstephenson> toscalix_: what's your immediate response to this criticism?  i just don't see a need for a long range plan to have circular homilies like "attract new players by being attractive to new players"
15:25:40 <ishwon> Hi all ...
15:25:47 <ishwon> Sorry for dropping late :P
15:25:56 <robjo> perception is reality!
15:26:39 <robjo> and there is plenty of empirical evidence that supports my perception
15:26:42 * |miska| agrees that 2016 title was unfortunate and missleading
15:26:53 <toscalix_> My response would be: is the plan the root that leads to the proposed actions. Without the long term plan, we probably would have presented a different approach.
15:26:55 <|miska|> But anyway, it's just title :-)
15:27:45 <manugupt1_> I am sorry I got disconnected
15:28:10 <wstephenson> you could have written the whole mail as as "more of teh same, but better (sic)"
15:28:19 <robjo> SO there is a plan that is being dolled out in predetermined spoon sized portions that someone decided were good chunks for the community to swallow
15:28:55 <toscalix_> for some, many of the exposed information is not new. But we cannot work on the assumption that everybody is in the same position.
15:29:03 <robjo> not a very nice way to present ideas to others
15:29:48 <toscalix_> robjo: no, there is a proposal of a plan that we are discussing that I think it can derive in linked and doable actions that can put us in a better position than we are right now
15:30:45 <tigerfoot> toscalix_: my concern is sometimes the misused "us" words.
15:31:07 <toscalix_> us=project in this sentence
15:31:16 <tigerfoot> sometimes it is community in a whole, sometimes more related to "our" openSUSE Team
15:31:17 <wstephenson> toscalix_: i don't think robjo is questioning that. i think his (and Ilmehtar's) problem is with the method of doing closed source proposal development and then tossing it over the wall
15:31:32 <robjo> Who here believes that the proposals presented are part of a "mostly preconceived plan"?
15:31:34 <tigerfoot> wstephenson: +1
15:31:45 <tigerfoot> robjo: me
15:31:47 <manugupt1_> me
15:32:09 <wstephenson> <recuses himself/>
15:32:20 <toscalix_> wstephenson: there are many people who disagrees with the followed method
15:32:38 <coolo> ... including me
15:32:43 <toscalix_> but they are proposing to use a method that already failed in the past
15:32:50 <wstephenson> my main problem is with the content produced by this method
15:33:08 <wstephenson> put briefly: i don't think the hooch you're brewing is strong enough to work.
15:33:08 <toscalix_> wstephenson: that is a different problem
15:33:58 <toscalix_> wstephenson: there are risks, I know, but there are also a strong determination and a solid group behind the proposal.
15:34:05 <tigerfoot> toscalix_: you mean we should change the method, cause it fail once, to a new way of failing ...
15:34:11 <Ilmehtar> toscalix_: Okay, lets flip it on it's head for a second. How pleased would you be if a Team in the openSUSE community came to you with a dramatic proposal which, if accepted, would impact the way you and your team work, why you and your team work, and the goals you and your team work towards.
15:34:13 <tigerfoot> but that doesn't change the result.
15:34:15 <Ilmehtar> It's clear from the way they present the plan, they've worked on it for months, and they're revealing it in a series of big chunky documents that need a lot of reading
15:34:20 <Ilmehtar> I imagine, your initial reaction would be something along the line of "Who the heck are these people telling me how I should be doing things? Why have they kept all this secret until now? What else are they hiding? Are they actually going to listen to my feedback?"
15:34:24 <Ilmehtar> The fact the proposals might include good stuff or not is immaterial, the process is rotten to the 'usual' way of doing business in an open project. And this is how I find myself feeling as I see these '2016 proposals' coming to light.
15:34:42 <toscalix_> tigerfoot: no, I mean that the previous example had some risks I didn't want to assume
15:34:59 <toscalix_> there are other ways of creating a proposal and still be open about it
15:35:04 <tigerfoot> toscalix_: then you see, you return to I ...
15:35:47 <tigerfoot> I mean I've a mixed feeling about who,what do openSUSE Team, it seems less clear for me compared to what was stated in old Booster's mission.
15:35:50 <toscalix_> I see it, and we have to deal with it. But is better than reaching a pleasant result....and not being able to execute it
15:36:11 <vuntz> it seems clear to me that many are not happy with the method; so it's something to improve in the future for sure
15:36:18 <vuntz> but we probably shouldn't stay one full hour on this
15:36:38 <vuntz> I know the method and the content are linked/mixed and so on, but we should probably take some time to focus on the content too :-)
15:36:48 <wstephenson> +1
15:36:52 <toscalix_> tigerfoot: that is a topic, the communication of our mission, that we can discuss about, yes.
15:37:48 <robjo> problem is that the way things get presented has a big impact on how things are received and where there is too much noise in the presentation it is extremely difficult to find the signal
15:37:57 <manugupt1_> +1
15:37:58 <tigerfoot> toscalix_: I really believe, that I'm not alone, to want to know more about openSUSE Team, and what would be the future in terms of cooperation with the whole community.
15:38:06 <toscalix_> Ilmehtar: this is not the usual way to get proposal out in the business world
15:38:17 <tigerfoot> in some ways, you're still special people you know ..
15:38:19 <robjo> one could now speculate that the noise was introduced purposefully
15:38:36 <toscalix_> robjo: I have the feeling that in your case it wouldn't matter much. You have proved that in the past
15:38:45 <vuntz> robjo: well, let's use the fact that we're all here to find the signal then :-)
15:39:02 <toscalix_> tigerfoot: fair point. Maybe we can solve that in the oSC14
15:39:16 <robjo> toscalix_: we are not in the business world, we are a community, at some point you will have to jump that hurdle
15:39:16 <CarlosRibeiro> toscalix_,  my only .5 cents here "some approuch that had not worked  pretty well before may work nowadays, everything changes as the time comes, ppl, project... so my opinion if some method have not worked before we need to figure out why and most important in a openess way
15:39:40 <tigerfoot> toscalix_: come on we're big boys, we can do it with a few beers at Brussel :-) no need to wait too much..
15:40:03 <toscalix_> robjo: please stop providing lessons about community as if we were new in these area. We all have a background
15:40:04 * manugupt1_ waits for the next topic now
15:40:16 <Ilmehtar> toscalix_: and? openSUSE is not a business. It's an open source project. Hiding away from the *majority* of your contributors and then burying them under an avalanche of proposals isn't going to engage them to stand up and help you do the exciting things you want to do
15:40:30 <toscalix_> I am fine with you disagreeing with me. But giving lessons is too much
15:40:33 <tigerfoot> robjo: its true, we're a community, but the trouble also come for example for toscalix_ to be in the two places at the same time ...
15:40:35 <toscalix_> even if I need them
15:41:17 <vuntz> come on guys
15:41:19 <tigerfoot> and the same apply for our beloved openSUSE Team...
15:41:40 <vuntz> please stop for a second, take a break, and step back in by focusing on the content and not just the form
15:41:41 <toscalix_> vuntz: I'll behave...sorry
15:41:56 <robjo> toscalix_: I am sorry but you keep operating as if we are running a business with openSUSE, so stop behaving like a business guy that has a profit number to present and you'll see the reaction will go away
15:42:22 <toscalix_> robjo: the proposal is mainly about opening the project
15:42:43 <toscalix_> look at the factory proposal. Openness is the root of the proposal
15:43:05 <wstephenson> <aside> /me counts 7 SUSE employees and ~3 community members in this discussion. a depressing balance for this topic at the project meeting. if you're not @suse and just lurking, speak up.</aside>
15:44:09 <izabelvalverde> following the discussion and agreeing with robjo, Ilmehtar and tigerfoot points so far
15:44:18 <toscalix_> we want to make sure that the development version is a place where everybody, no matter where it comes from, can play every role
15:44:23 <manugupt1_> toscalix_: I really love the factory proposal, even though I do not understand a lot of it (specially the openqa one)
15:44:26 <coolo> wstephenson: remember it's 16:43 in most of the openSUSE world ;)
15:44:49 <vuntz> manugupt1_: is there anything you'd like clarifications on?
15:45:22 <manugupt1_> vuntz: yes.. there are a few proposals I think like the Karma one
15:45:26 <CarlosRibeiro> +1 for robjo, Ilmehtar and tigerfoot
15:45:36 <wstephenson> coolo: ack, but without broad community participation gives this discussion the status of a fart resulting from indigestion in the guts of SUSE ;)
15:45:38 <toscalix_> achieving that goal by iteration is something that would take us too long. We need to apply an intensive action to the process, to change it
15:46:09 <vuntz> manugupt1_: feel free to ask concrete questions, then :-)
15:46:13 <robjo> Why are we under time pressure?
15:46:38 <coolo> robjo: there is a christmas party in NBG today ;)
15:47:11 <manugupt1_> vuntz: then ok.. I will ask I will take the Karma one.. initially I liked it a lot. but then the excel sheet cropped up and I saw thtat it is more scarier than it seemed to be
15:47:12 <tigerfoot> why aren't we invited there then ??? :-)
15:47:18 <robjo> coolo: thanks for sharing, I guess we should have started iterating in January then
15:47:36 <antlarr> hi, I just arrived. I'll try to read the comments quickly
15:47:58 <toscalix_> vuntz: if you want to repeat this session in the future, just tell us, so instead of having one person of the team on them, as usual, we can be more, depending on the topic.
15:47:59 <Ilmehtar> toscalix_: I disagree. Had you started iteration at the same time you started your planning, we'd probably already have results done by now. I also don't agree that any one individual/Team in the Project should have the right to arbitrarily take 'intensive action'
15:48:00 <|miska|> manugupt1_: I hate the spreadsheet as well
15:48:01 <manugupt1_> if you look at the sheet henne created 100 events in an year ( comeone who can do it ), prompt reviews (too difficult) on wiki, some of us work on weekends only
15:48:05 <wstephenson> and that's the crux of my problems with the proposal: i don't see an intensive action in the plans. the factory and open governance suggestions are worthwhile refinements of existing processes, karma is window dressing, OSEP nice to have, but nothing intensive is there
15:48:23 <coolo> manugupt1_: actually we have a pretty good idea on the work required for openqa, but we have not a good one for the whole staging thing
15:48:23 <tigerfoot> wstephenson: there's more depressive fact 157 votes / 547 members ...
15:48:38 <coolo> manugupt1_: if you read the threads, there are a lot of proposals and noone knows what will work
15:48:44 <|miska|> manugupt1_: That's why I proposed different approach on mailing list
15:48:45 <coolo> manugupt1_: but I'm certain what we do right now is madness
15:48:55 <tigerfoot> :-)
15:48:58 <toscalix_> Ilmehtar: that is guessing
15:49:04 <Ilmehtar> toscalix_: and you're not? :)
15:49:28 <wstephenson> tigerfoot: so IMO we should look those numbers in the eye and accept we are a tiny community, and start acting like a tiny startup team with lots of energy (and chaos) not more rounds of proposals and planning.
15:49:39 <manugupt1_> |miska|: yes I saw that.. thanks.. what I would suggest is really try to subtly disrupt.. make sure that people feel that they are welcome at high standards which are achievable
15:49:43 <tigerfoot> absolutely !!! wstephenson
15:49:55 <toscalix_> tigerfoot: I work with wht I have. After the release is over, we have the time to do what we are doing, not before.
15:50:24 <coolo> Ilmehtar: not guessing, proposing future. That's different :)
15:50:43 <ancorgs> manugupt1_: the initial proposal was quite focused in OBS, the spreadsheet suggested by henne have a wider scope
15:50:57 <manugupt1_> coolo: Thanks.. I understand that and I also understand I am not the right person for factory matters since I do not contribute there
15:51:09 <|miska|> manugupt1_: Yep, threshold would have to be set up carefully and partially experimentally :-/
15:51:42 <manugupt1_> ancorgs: yes and that is why I agreed to it, if you look at my mail, I think people misunderstood again for the whole process
15:52:01 <toscalix_> tigerfoot: we have been focused the last 16 months in working. Planning is needed once in a while. You know that. wstephenson also knows that. Working for a long time without revisiting your plan is not healthy. That is compatible with our motto.
15:52:01 <manugupt1_> I would love to have a dashboard to see the packages I contribute and stuff like that but I would love to compare myself with others
15:52:45 <toscalix_> manugupt1_: we appreciate your comments. I disagree with many of them. But your motivations are clear. No question about it
15:53:12 * wstephenson thinks release early, release often applies to plans as well as software, and we would have gotten more out of limited scope but more exciting plans stArted working on this time last year1
15:53:17 <manugupt1_> toscalix_: I will like to listen to your disagreements
15:53:21 <wstephenson> (sorry, baby typing with me)
15:53:30 <tigerfoot> toscalix_: the timeframe choosen and the way of doing is done, so let move on ... What I draw with the election numbers, is the simple fact we're a very small tiny community.
15:53:39 <toscalix_> wstephenson: take this as a major release in an upstream project
15:53:54 <toscalix_> you cannot apply the same rules than in minor releases
15:53:59 <toscalix_> you need to stop a little
15:54:00 <wstephenson> 3
15:54:08 <wstephenson> (baby again)
15:54:30 <toscalix_> wstephenson: I didn't meant to offend you
15:54:31 <wstephenson> we didn't plan for 16 months before starting KDE 4 though
15:54:38 <wstephenson> no offense taken
15:54:51 <robjo> there is no planning in the kernel
15:54:56 <robjo> it just works
15:55:10 <toscalix_> the previous state of the kernel is not our state either
15:55:25 <coolo> so we are forced to do something that does not work?
15:55:44 * manugupt1_ corrects himself I would not like to compare
15:56:01 <tigerfoot> toscalix_: what is your (this time personnal) objectives, then it would be cool to have the personnal vision of all of the openSUSE Team,
15:56:11 <coolo> manugupt1_: we can offer comparision only to those that are better than others. How does that sound? :)
15:56:15 <tigerfoot> I've seen the Coolo's mindshare ... but the rest ?
15:56:21 <toscalix_> I like that question
15:56:22 <robjo> nobody said that, but the idea of stopping the wheels so we can "plan" and then letting go and "execute" is a bit old fashioned
15:56:31 <toscalix_> motivations are relevant to understand proposals
15:57:57 <robjo> agreed
15:58:25 <toscalix_> Mine: 1.- we want and talk about something we cannot have. We talk about being open, sharing the work and creating community. But many of the current processes goes in the opposite direction. Once we have worked on them and understatood them, we have come to a common agreement on this idea, I hope. We need to change it to really have a chance to back up our words and wishes with our actions.
15:58:59 <robjo> Leaves the question why inquiries that concern the motivation generally go unanswered
15:59:13 <manugupt1_> coolo: Hmm its dicey.. it can work either ways.. actually depends on the person perceiving it.. but usually people with high standards wont bother, they contribute a lot because they already are motivated, do we actually thing comparing them would make them better motivated? that is something we need to answer
15:59:33 <toscalix_> 2.- We all want to contribute in a successful project. Sooner or later most contributors face the same question. Am I working in the right project? If we keep loosing users we cannot expect to keep the contributors
16:00:04 <tigerfoot> toscalix_: make me a favor please, use I for you .-), openSUSE Team (ot) when its about the team, we could be community or your team, and that's lead to confusion.
16:00:29 <|miska|> manugupt1_: Well, coolo is not a good example, but imagine that you find out that you are just few packages/commits behind the guy you admire, wouldn't it motivate you to do more to "catch up"? :-D
16:01:00 <robjo> |miska|: no
16:01:07 <toscalix_> and 3.- I work for a company that really knows what free software is about. But it is small. We cannot succeed if only SUSE supports the project. Free SOftware has grown so much that our size won't allow us to stay relevant
16:01:09 <toscalix_> done
16:01:29 <tigerfoot> |miska|: nope I would think, he's sick, and will bring him a beer :-)
16:01:29 <|miska|> robjo: Worked on me :-)
16:01:40 <manugupt1_> |miska|: yes.. but then what about people who are really entering packages but may intimdiate them too
16:01:42 <toscalix_> tigerfoot: sorry...yes, I will try
16:01:53 <tigerfoot> toscalix_: thanks,
16:01:56 <manugupt1_> So  we have a 50-50 % ;)
16:02:07 <robjo> |miska|: good for you, that doesn't apply generally
16:02:27 <|miska|> robjo: tigerfoot : Would it discourage you from contributing?
16:02:52 <izabelvalverde> toscalix_ so to assure community decisions instead of "decision" but lead by openSUSE Team we need to find a new sponsor?
16:02:56 <Ilmehtar> toscalix_: A few thoughts on 1) a) I believe your current processes, the way these 2016 have been put together, are the worst example of processes going in the opposite direction. Closed, opaque. I agree we should move towards openness, I don't see how long planning windows and weighty proposal documents fit into that goal.
16:02:56 <Ilmehtar> b) you may have common agreement inside your team, but your team is just a small fraction of the ~200-300 contributors we have. I think the reaction to the 2016 proposals shows that we have some way to go before there is that common agreement. I think focusing on practical proposals (like Coolo's Factory posts) is the best way to achieve that.
16:02:58 <tigerfoot> |miska|: I'm the leader of NOKarma for everyone :-)
16:03:20 <robjo> Showing what people do is not discouraging, having some arbitray value system of tokens/karma/badges is
16:03:53 <manugupt1_> +1 to Ilmehtar
16:03:59 <vuntz> robjo: quickly interrupting you: as we're past the hour of the meeting, are you fine if we discuss "oSC15 ideas about finding a location" at a later meeting and keep the current topic going?
16:04:23 <toscalix_> Ilmehtar: sponsors are not a goal but the consequence of having the right offer for them. In any case, I am open to have another conversation of how opaque or transparent has been our activity
16:04:39 <ancorgs> just a clarification: is not coolo's proposal about factory or ancorgs' proposal about karma and so on
16:04:45 <Ilmehtar> toscalix_: I don't believe I said anything about sponsors..
16:04:58 <ancorgs> all of them are proposals from the openSUSE team
16:05:01 <robjo> vuntz: fine
16:05:16 <|miska|> tigerfoot, robjo: The way we did it in connect with my student is that everybody can decide for himself whether he wants to make his karma public or not
16:05:20 <ancorgs> but somebody have to write the mails :-)
16:05:24 <toscalix_> Ilmehtar: ups, sorry. Sponsor topic for izabelvalverde
16:05:25 <izabelvalverde> abou sponsors I did
16:05:31 <izabelvalverde> :)
16:05:42 * wstephenson has to step out for a minute. my problem with the proposal content as planned is that we will end up with a plan for the best steam railway ever, by the time the rest of the world is building the internet.
16:05:45 <toscalix_> vuntz: are we done or can I answer izabelvalverde
16:05:47 <toscalix_> ?
16:05:48 <Ilmehtar> ancorgs: :) I know, but there is a huge difference in tone between proposals like coolos, and other documents that are part of the 2016-pile, so it's been a lot easier for me to refer to it in that way
16:06:03 <tigerfoot> wstephenson: :-)
16:06:34 <toscalix_> Ilmehtar: difference in tone....because they are written by different people.
16:06:50 <coolo> Ilmehtar: let's differentiate between "technical proposals" and "plans"
16:06:58 <tigerfoot> toscalix_: robjo said okay to vuntz so green light
16:07:28 <ancorgs> Ilmehtar: obviously, coolo is better than the average of us at writting right to the bone (and had some nice diagrams to rely on) :-)
16:07:31 <vuntz> toscalix_: I think we should keep the discussion going as long as people can
16:08:05 * manugupt1_ comes back in 10 minutes
16:08:52 <toscalix_> izabelvalverde: we have a hard time getting sponsors despite the effort some people, like you, put, for many reasons. SOme are fixable in the current set up, but some don't. Everything is easier when you have something attractive to offer. I think that a user oriented distro, will help us a lot in this regard. This do not mean
16:09:07 <Ilmehtar> coolo: lets call them "practical proposals" and "plans".. I like "practical proposals" .. i can like plans too, but those plans need to have some hook into reality, some attachment to "practical proposals" for them to make sense and be something actionable. Otherwise it's just endless, unproductive, waffle
16:09:08 <toscalix_> we won't need to solve the other problems
16:09:11 <awafaa> toscalix_: maybe in that case one should learn from the pther person, especially as their tone has received more constructive response?
16:10:06 <toscalix_> awafaa: got lost. Can you develop further?
16:10:39 <tigerfoot> toscalix_: I can't agree on that, the question of the budget, the money flow process etc are all in the area of gray's shadows we will have to fix this year ...
16:10:47 <awafaa> toscalix_: to quote you "difference in tone....because they are written by different people"
16:11:18 * tigerfoot don't say it will be easy but we will have ...
16:11:27 <izabelvalverde> toscalix_ thank you, indeed is not easy to find sponsors besides our own community pushing their companies
16:12:35 <tigerfoot> God thanks we have a big sponsors, sharing our values, and respecting our community, but finding a place for others sponsors can't be fixed on only one side.
16:12:57 * tigerfoot look and see sponsors, fix sponsor
16:13:05 <awafaa> if you want to do badges, following Mozilla's example which was adopted by Fedora is a much better one, than the Ubuntu style Karma
16:13:15 <robjo> It's not easy to find sponsors for SUSECon either, come on does anyone really belief sponsors walk through the door and say "here take my money"?
16:13:39 <toscalix_> awafaa: I am very glad that coolo tone received this time complements about his communication. Usually is the opposite. People tend to be hard with those who holds responsibility in this regard. It is something he has to deal with...
16:13:39 <izabelvalverde> robjo just dreamers
16:13:49 <tigerfoot> robjo: when did that change ? :-)
16:14:12 <robjo> Fundraising, finding sponsors is hard work, period
16:14:20 <coolo> toscalix_: wow, did you just diss me?
16:14:35 <toscalix_> awafaa: tomas has the same issue. Being in the release team and being identified as the NO man is not easy
16:14:37 <izabelvalverde> robjo totally agree
16:14:38 <javier> robjo: http://www.42gadgets.de/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg ;)
16:14:50 <robjo> coolo: nope, threw you under the bus
16:14:56 <robjo> he did yes
16:14:56 <toscalix_> coolo: I gave you a complement, yes.
16:15:09 <toscalix_> and to Tomas
16:15:12 <coolo> toscalix_: aehm, google that word then
16:15:48 <awafaa> toscalix_: coolo is normally blunt and to the point, no smoke and mirrors. he presents straight hard up facts, like it or lump it. he doesn't have time for petty word games which is why people respect his views even if they don't agree
16:16:01 <anditosan> Question, of-topic, can we make necklaces for the conference, not just the badge?
16:16:01 <Sleep_Walker> :D
16:16:06 <anditosan> is that expensive?
16:16:09 <toscalix_> awafaa: I know several dozens of people who will disagree with you.
16:16:35 <awafaa> toscalix_: and i know several hundred that would agree with me ;)
16:16:52 <izabelvalverde> anditosan oSC14 meeting is tomorrow :D
16:16:58 <toscalix_> to me the point is that as part of the release team, they have a responsibility and you cannot expect them to answer with parts of nice songs every time
16:17:04 <anditosan> izabelvalverde: yay!!! :D
16:17:06 <|miska|> toscalix_: You are trying to say that there some people who liked the mail coolo sent the least from the pile and the big picture the most?
16:17:32 <awafaa> toscalix_: communication has to be adjusted for the audience, it helps to learn from other speakers of the same audience. you adjust as you go along
16:18:01 <toscalix_> |miska|: I am saying that I am glad the coolo mail got a positive feedback. It is also our mail
16:18:31 <cboltz> toscalix_: http://paste.opensuse.org/4082047 ;-)
16:18:52 <awafaa> toscalix_: "our" as in openSUSE team?
16:18:53 <toscalix_> awafaa: project has all audiences. And plans are harder to digest in community projects than technical proposals. We knew that and assumed the risks derived
16:19:14 <cboltz> my feeling is that most contributors even prefer hard facts over "politian-like" wordings ;-)
16:19:16 * ancorgs feels that we are talking too much about writting styles
16:19:56 <awafaa> ancorgs: you are somewhat correct, but how you convey the message is just as important as the message itself
16:20:06 <toscalix_> awafaa: the proposal is not just coolo proposal. I think ancorgs said it before.
16:20:18 <cwh> quite a long meeting ...
16:20:24 <tigerfoot> we're in a loop
16:20:29 <coolo> ancorgs: actually we're talking about not understanding the importance of it
16:20:35 <tigerfoot> cwh: don't complain you invite us :-)
16:20:42 <|miska|> Ok, so let's say that the way we communicated our ideas sucked, so let's talk about ideas itself :-)
16:20:57 <vuntz> yes!
16:21:03 <vuntz> let's discuss the ideas
16:21:03 <antlarr> please :)
16:21:33 <manugupt1_> Please
16:21:35 <manugupt1_> :)
16:21:55 <tigerfoot> I found the ideas have missed some importants points ...
16:22:26 <toscalix_> |miska|: sometimes in order to discuss "the point", you need to throw out what you have. We are here also to receive that negative energy. Let's move on yes.
16:22:38 <tigerfoot> the idea of we're loosing users, and then we will loose contributors is somewhat erroneous.
16:23:10 <tigerfoot> The users ( end user, grandma paradigm) are only followers, they don't create value,
16:23:22 <tigerfoot> What we're missing is
16:24:07 <tigerfoot> From dreams, come a vision, then a plan and values (we have them in our statement), then contributors get motivated to make them real
16:24:21 <tigerfoot> then users follow, as they always do.
16:24:36 <tigerfoot> Where are and What are our dreams?
16:26:01 <awafaa> tigerfoot: well it depends on how toscalix_ defines users
16:26:17 <toscalix_> tigerfoot: the big picture is not a reset of the project. It is a attempt to provide more focus, not to change the scope of the project
16:26:18 <tigerfoot> awafaa: why toscalix_, WE define
16:26:50 <tigerfoot> toscalix_: then make me dream, the 2016 thread doesn't yet
16:27:00 <toscalix_> that focus will help us to better define the actions we can achieve to accomplsh the goals
16:27:03 <awafaa> tigerfoot: because HE is the one claiming we are losing users, even after we (the Board) tried to explain to him in Greece
16:27:12 <tigerfoot> the factory approach is like a old dream we have, make it stable .. you feel the difference
16:27:19 <anditosan> I feel that thre is always potential on each person to contribute in any way. Obviously we cannot expect grandma X to do programming. But can she be a satisfied user who passes the voice around about our distribution, yes. So we cannot discard people for not being what we think we want. Maybe a focus is being taken as exclusionary when it is not.
16:27:23 <toscalix_> splitting the distro will allow us to focus more on the devs and the end users
16:27:23 <robjo> there is no room for dreaming when you're focused ;)
16:27:27 <toscalix_> for instance
16:27:37 <robjo> and focus and execution is what this appears to be all about
16:27:55 <awafaa> toscalix_: but why should we split the two?
16:28:31 <toscalix_> free software have grown so much that you cannot reach everybody with one offer
16:28:53 <Ilmehtar> toscalix_: why do we need to reach everybody?
16:29:07 <toscalix_> no matter how flexible you are, that is no longer true.
16:29:10 <anditosan> exactly my point Ilmehtar
16:29:24 <toscalix_> we don't, we need only to select who do we want to reach
16:29:28 <anditosan> we cannot be everybody's everything in a linux distro
16:29:29 <awafaa> Ilmehtar: well said
16:30:07 <robjo> why do we need to choose?
16:30:09 <awafaa> well if we can get more software developers, users of their products will naturally adopt whatever platform the developers prefer
16:30:15 <toscalix_> and make sure we are the first or second choice for those selected
16:30:21 <awafaa> that is how Ubuntu managed to get so much mind share
16:30:48 <awafaa> toscalix_: we shouldn't aim for second - *ever*
16:31:26 <tigerfoot> awafaa: +1
16:31:29 <Ilmehtar> toscalix_: okay, so, when should we start the discussion to choose? but wouldn't that discussion totally invalidate your teams decisions and current plans? It seems to me you're quite set on the idea of 2 versions
16:32:01 <toscalix_> the proposal is clear about this point yes. We clearly propose to split the distribution in two parts
16:32:28 <|miska|> I would say split
16:32:29 <ishwon> I don't find the comparison with Ubuntu a nice thing. Wherever I do openSUSE presentation people like it, like the features & facilities. I even have people moving from Ubuntu to openSUSE.
16:32:30 <toscalix_> a development version based on an enhaced factory and a user centric version
16:32:36 * tigerfoot is looking around to find his left part, just splitted
16:33:02 <|miska|> Let existing focus of Factory and Release diverge a little further
16:33:28 <awafaa> but what is the difference from factory and "user" versions?
16:33:34 <toscalix_> can we finish at 17:45
16:33:41 <toscalix_> we need to go.
16:33:43 <toscalix_> ?
16:34:08 <robjo> I don't recall anyone outlining a rough frame work of pros and cons for a split
16:34:09 * tigerfoot think no way :-) the meeting end has been delayed until 19h45
16:34:21 <anditosan> awafaa: This question is something we will talk far and long for lol :)
16:34:21 <tigerfoot> robjo: +1
16:34:56 <toscalix_> awafaa: the user centric apporach is more like todays approach, based on a "product like" release. The dev version is a rolling distribution approach
16:35:04 <anditosan> Can toscalix_ explain the ins and outs of this split in the ML?
16:35:05 <|miska|> awafaa: Factory is development version - less qa and stability and more bleeding edge and cool, release - stable and tested for people who don't want cool new things everyday and want just to "work"
16:35:09 <vuntz> toscalix_: sure, we can end in 10 minutes
16:35:47 <toscalix_> anditosan: ot will try if you think it is needed, yes.
16:35:49 * tigerfoot think we can also continue with our without you too :-)
16:36:06 <|miska|> :-)
16:36:06 <toscalix_> we have the Xmas party, that's all
16:36:27 <anditosan> toscalix_: I feel a few of us here want to here more detail specifically about your idea to split development for the distribution
16:36:38 <anditosan> hear*
16:36:39 <robjo> go and be merry, that doesn't mean the meeting has to end
16:36:40 * tigerfoot waves goods, foods, beers to all Xmas P
16:36:45 * awafaa actually thinks there is more likely to be a preference for developers to use rolling releases and as such their users will want to do the same, almost negating the product
16:37:00 <toscalix_> vuntz: we can come again if you guys want
16:37:03 <robjo> last time I checked we did OK even if not all of the oenSUSE team members were in the meeting
16:37:39 <awafaa> robjo: yup, i have the same recollection
16:37:47 <anditosan> awafaa: I agree. They will have to define this one to understand more
16:37:56 <robjo> toscalix_: you are welcome anytime, I don't think a special inivation needs to be issued
16:38:09 <coolo> robjo: "we" is not plural for everyone
16:38:11 <tigerfoot> :-)
16:38:30 <toscalix_> we need to make sure this fit in the agenda. We have eaten most of the time
16:38:40 <awafaa> actually one would have thought that the openSUSE team would always be in -project seeing as what the do directly affects the openSUSE Project
16:38:42 <robjo> coolo: thanks "we" as in "we" the king, got it
16:38:56 <Ilmehtar> my opinion - I love the proposed changes for Factory - I think we should do them. I don't understand/haven't seen the justification for a 'user centric' release. I think we should do the Factory changes now. The rest can still be discussed. And this is why I like iterative processes - making Factory better doesn't need Misc. Planning Point 452 to be fully
16:38:56 <Ilmehtar> fleshed out.
16:39:23 <awafaa> Ilmehtar: +1
16:39:32 <|miska|> Ilmehtar: +1
16:39:50 <toscalix_> awafaa: as |miska| said in the ML a member of the team is always present in these meetings , make a summary in our team meetings and we provide the info in the report that circulates internally in SUSE, so other employees have access to what's happening in the project
16:39:51 <manugupt1_> Ilmehtar: +1
16:39:59 <tigerfoot> Ilmehtar: +1.5
16:40:47 <tigerfoot> toscalix_: aie ... you mean otherwise people at SUSE doesn't have access to openSUSE project stuff ?
16:40:48 <|miska|> We are just mostly not visible, but we are always spying on you :-P
16:40:58 <Ilmehtar> toscalix_: .... why dont you just encorage the other SUSE employees to read the minutes/report that we publish openly for the whole community?
16:41:25 <anditosan> Ilmehtar: that is probably because for us it is easier to understand what development changes mean. Now they will need to explore the changes needed for a "user centric" distro. Which is an area that we do not dive into as much. The need for is another thing that we need to explore. How are we closer to an everyday non-programmer? Food for thought
16:41:37 <AlbertoP> Ilmehtar, reason 1 for a "user-centric" release -> "you want users", and I am unsure about how many we are attracting and how many we are keeping far due to the usual unresolved issues :-)
16:42:05 <Sleep_Walker> Ilmehtar: I'm not sure other SUSE employees have already read all the e-mails toscalix_ and openSUSE team is producing...
16:42:10 <ancorgs> Ilmehtar: there is always a link in the minutes, but lazy people that reads our meeting minutes gets the project's ones for free
16:42:15 <antlarr> Ilmehtar: that's exactly what is done, we put a link to the official logs
16:42:16 <|miska|> Well, user centric distro is not on the plate right now
16:42:28 <|miska|> And we have enough flames with Factory now ;-)
16:42:33 <toscalix_> Ilmehtar: we play our role as link everyday. But people is used to reading some newsletters and not others, so we try to at least put a openSUSE goody in all of them
16:42:53 <manugupt1_> |miska|: is a stable developer centric distro on the plate :P one which we can say we wont change it for next 6 months
16:43:05 <toscalix_> Sleep_Walker: I guarantee you that they haven't
16:43:14 <toscalix_> even if we pay for it ;-)
16:43:21 <|miska|> manugupt1_: Factory changes everyday
16:43:23 <robjo> |miska|: flamewars are different, I am actually very positive about the factual tone of voice in the factory discussion
16:43:30 <robjo> much better than we have done in the past
16:44:00 <plinnell> yup
16:44:03 <tigerfoot> robjo: we grow, (mature?)
16:44:16 <AlbertoP> tigerfoot, no, someone left :)
16:44:29 <|miska|> Well, my point was, there is no point in duscising what we might do with stable release when we have plenty Factory ideas on our plate and world could end before we finish them
16:44:44 <plinnell> |miska|: exactly
16:44:52 <Ilmehtar> |miska|: we agree
16:45:02 <toscalix_> I have to leave. I enjoyed. Thanks.
16:45:04 <tigerfoot> AlbertoP: just on the tone we use on factory thread ml, this doesn't mean we fixed all what we have to :-)
16:45:11 <vuntz> toscalix_: thanks for your time
16:45:21 <plinnell> this has been good
16:45:47 <tigerfoot> vuntz: next topic? :-)
16:45:53 <robjo> One thing that is being neglected in all of this is that the impact of implementing the changes has not been made public
16:46:02 <AlbertoP> tigerfoot, my answer was to your "grow/mature" statement. The tone changed because people changed (meaning they are other individuals)
16:46:04 <tigerfoot> thanks toscalix_ & the whole team.
16:46:17 <tigerfoot> AlbertoP: omg we agree :-)
16:46:25 <plinnell> one thing we sometimes forget is not everyone is a native English speaker, so written communication sometime lacks nuances
16:46:34 <robjo> the openSUSE team appears to operate as whole on an "either or" basis.
16:46:37 <Ilmehtar> plinnell: we know peter, it's okay, we forgive you
16:46:46 <izabelvalverde> :P
16:46:50 <vuntz> tigerfoot: well, we can go on a bit if people still want to discuss, but I suggest to conclude in the next 10 minutes (at least, for the official meeting part, discussion can go on afterwards)
16:46:55 <plinnell> lol :d
16:47:03 <AlbertoP> My main concern is that you talk too much about Factory, which is of no interest in terms of gaining share, and very very little about products and releases that a user might want to use.
16:47:14 <robjo> thus if the whole openSUSE team works on fiddling with OBS and the new factory model it will have an effect on other work they have been doing that leads toward a release
16:48:14 <robjo> as of know most of the world, that includes openSUSE contributors, is probably under the assumption that 13.2 is due in July or so next year (8 month cycle)
16:48:41 <tigerfoot> vuntz: so we drop the other questons to next meeting. Sounds good for me.
16:48:45 <robjo> considering the current mode of operation there is a lot of work that will need to be picked up by others to get there
16:48:47 <AlbertoP> Factory is nice and all, but from my perspective there is way too much focus on the process, and very little on fixing "practical problems" that keep users away (see very stupid technical issues that have been affecting us forever)
16:48:59 <vuntz> tigerfoot: yeah, there was only one other topic and we postpone it
16:49:11 <robjo> thus there is an effect that is currently be ignored/swept under the rug
16:49:40 * AlbertoP goes back in silent mode :)
16:49:48 <coolo> AlbertoP: you figure that "factory" is our development process?
16:49:54 <wstephenson> where is 'user-centric distro' actually proposed?
16:50:08 <|miska|> AlbertoP: The tricky part is, that that one "practical problem" that keep users away is different for every user :-)
16:50:13 <coolo> AlbertoP: you can't fix technical problems without working on the process too
16:50:14 * tigerfoot look in /dev/null and found an awnser for wstephenson
16:50:26 <ancorgs> robjo: yes, the openSUSE team would like to concentrate efforts in improving factory (after reaching agreements on how to do it), and that means that we will appreciate people stepping into the release process
16:50:31 <|miska|> And most people "in" are not affected otherwise they would have fixed it already
16:51:08 <AlbertoP> coolo, my point is that the process is the only discussed aspect. There is no plan to address practical problems at the moment, at least not practical problems that have affected users for a long time. Then well, I certainly do not have the view of someone working at suse :)
16:51:19 <Sleep_Walker> |miska|: ahem
16:51:37 <|miska|> AlbertoP: There is bugzilla for those :-)
16:51:41 <ancorgs> wstephenson: here http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2013-11/msg00118.html
16:51:53 <ancorgs> wstephenson: "overhauled openSUSE release"
16:51:53 <tigerfoot> AlbertoP: the proposed plan will not hit users, before a certain amount of time (and effort)
16:52:08 <AlbertoP> to say it frankly, I heard of "factory process" for years, and |miska| bugzilla is a place where most users won't go due to the attitude :-\
16:52:32 * tigerfoot warn |miska| about the plethora of numbers AlbertoP can throw to you :-)
16:52:34 <robjo> ancorgs: so why is that so hard to put in a mail message, and skip all the fluff and political BS
16:52:47 <wstephenson> ancorgs: thanks - i had read that but not seen that as a call for a "user centred release" a la ubuntu/mint/blue thingy linux
16:52:48 <robjo> ancorgs: I know that's not your idea
16:52:51 <AlbertoP> tigerfoot, ok. Fine. Thanks for clarifying. Then it benefit suse only, not the community of its users though.
16:53:23 <tigerfoot> AlbertoP: nope, from my point of view, if I'm, able as contributor to return to factory daily usage, then
16:53:26 <AlbertoP> not saying it's bad, but it will have probably an effect on delaying the perception of improvements...
16:53:41 <manugupt1_> AlbertoP: I wont bother updating my relaese.. simple
16:53:45 <|miska|> robjo: You mean differnet communication tones that are caused by different people writing the mails?
16:53:48 <tigerfoot> later end user's grandma will not have to fight with certain things, cause I will be able to fix more ...
16:53:51 <manugupt1_> I will start cherry picking stuff for myself
16:53:52 <AlbertoP> tigerfoot, that would make me a non-user if I have to use factory to have something decent though, for example.
16:54:32 <tigerfoot> AlbertoP: depend of WE define what factory should be and how WE will handle its process and life.
16:55:00 <|miska|> AlbertoP: If we fix&test stuff in Factory more, it will not end up in release
16:55:03 <tigerfoot> then we come back to some offers made by openSUSE Team and drawn by coolo.
16:55:11 <robjo> |miska|: no I mean express what you really want in a clear concise non offending way
16:55:19 <AlbertoP> tigerfoot, my point is opensuse desperately needs a *user perspective* of some sort, not a technical perspective, which it had forever (good or bad). All the talks about process led to make things more abstract and obscure in the past, and I don't see why it should be much different now. But then again, my 2 cents :)
16:55:27 <vuntz> so, guys
16:55:33 <vuntz> interrupting all of you a bit
16:55:42 <vuntz> I'll stop the meeting now, but feel free to go on afterwards
16:55:47 <vuntz> just one quick unrelated note
16:56:04 <ancorgs> wstephenson: yes. that mail was supposed to provide "The Vision" with the split into a rolling but stabilized Factory ("enhaced factory") and a user centric release ("Overhauled openSUSE Release") with a surrounding "open governance model"
16:56:06 <vuntz> izabelvalverde wanted to remind everyone that members can vote for the elections until the 15th
16:56:12 <vuntz> so if you haven't voted, go do it :-)
16:56:19 <tigerfoot> not can, HAVE TO
16:56:28 <vuntz> #endmeeting