18:01:47 <AlanClark> #startmeeting openSUSE Project+Board Meeting 2-Nov-2011
18:01:47 <bugbot> Meeting started Wed Nov  2 18:01:47 2011 UTC.  The chair is AlanClark. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:01:47 <bugbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
18:02:23 <AlanClark> #chair henne AlanClark prusnak mrdocs suseROCKS
18:02:23 <bugbot> Current chairs: AlanClark henne mrdocs prusnak suseROCKS
18:03:02 <AlanClark> I don't believe Rupert will be joining us today
18:03:16 <AlanClark> #meetingtopic openSUSE Project Meeting - http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Project_meeting
18:03:35 <AlanClark> mrdocs:  which # command did I miss?
18:03:59 <mrdocs> #topic
18:04:03 <suseROCKs> AlanClark,   When you do #startmeeting you should make it meaningful  like @startmeeting Board+Project 11-02-2011 or something like that
18:04:26 <suseROCKs> then when you do #topic, it appends to the meeting name you designated in #startmeeting
18:05:14 <AlanClark> suseROCKs: I did that.?
18:05:30 <suseROCKs> right
18:05:36 <suseROCKs> i missed that  :-)
18:05:42 <suseROCKs> so you didn't miss anything.
18:05:56 <AlanClark> Ok today's agenda includes:
18:06:09 <AlanClark> 1. Action items from prevous meetings
18:06:13 <AlanClark> 2. status reports
18:06:18 <AlanClark> 3. 2012 elections
18:06:27 <AlanClark> 4. permission requests
18:06:31 <AlanClark> 5. Improvements
18:06:34 <AlanClark> 6. Q/A
18:06:56 <AlanClark> The details are located on http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Project_meeting
18:07:09 <AlanClark> Anyone want to add to today's project meeting agenda?
18:07:39 <AlanClark> #topic Action items from previous meetings
18:07:55 <cboltz> Can we discuss contributor gifts first? I have to leave in about 15 minutes...
18:08:56 <AlanClark> sure. cboltz go ahead with an update.  I've seen a lot of email, but am still catching.
18:09:08 <AlanClark> s/catching/catching up
18:09:08 <cboltz> I'll paste the summary...
18:09:18 <cboltz> I sent a summary to the project ML about two weeks ago
18:09:20 <cboltz> http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2011-10/msg00036.html
18:09:21 <cboltz> the (IMHO) most relevant replies were
18:09:23 <cboltz> http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2011-10/msg00043.html
18:09:24 <cboltz> http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-project/2011-10/msg00041.html
18:09:26 <cboltz> I'll give a summary:
18:09:27 <cboltz> The most welcome gifts seem to be T-shirts (or polo shirts)
18:09:27 <suseROCKs> how come I don't see the contributor AI listed in the bugzila list?
18:09:29 <cboltz> Most people think that "at each release" would be the best "frequency" for a gift - probably because they are used to it
18:09:30 <cboltz> The idea for playing cards resulted in the idea to create an openSUSE game (as a separate project), but not as a contributor gift
18:09:32 <cboltz> Also the idea of naming a star for each contributor came up, but that only means paying a random company for some cute paperwork.
18:09:33 <cboltz> The idea of awards at the conference got mixed feedback
18:09:35 <cboltz> SLE* licenses (xx% off) were proposed as a general member benefit, but don't fit as a contributor gift
18:09:36 <cboltz> That's the summary - now discuss, decide and find a sponsor ;-)
18:09:41 <suseROCKs> oh wait I see it.  never mind  :-D
18:10:31 <AlanClark> cboltz:  I know that you talked to AJ about the cost of world wide shipping
18:10:47 <AlanClark> will a t-shirt bankrupt us?
18:10:58 <cboltz> yes, that's why my last line includes "find a sponsor" ;-)
18:11:03 <AlanClark> :-)
18:11:05 <suseROCKs> wasn't the cost of tshirts one of the early reasons why we started this discussion?
18:11:26 <suseROCKs> hmm   a sponsor to pay for tshirt costs (incl. shipping?)
18:11:39 <cboltz> the problem is more located in the cost of shipment and customs and less in the costs for the tshirt if I understand AJ right
18:11:40 <k-d-l> general question: how many people want such gifts?
18:11:50 <cboltz> (at least when it comes to the non-european countries)
18:11:59 <AlanClark> cboltz:  is correct. It's the cost of shipping
18:12:13 <cboltz> k-d-l: well, not too many people actively ask for it
18:12:30 <cboltz> but they are very happy if they receive something as a "thank you"
18:12:55 <suseROCKs> well... here's my perspective on tshirts.  When I started in the community I longed for a tshirt beecause I didn't have one...   Now.. a few years later, I literally have too many tshirts.
18:13:01 <robjo> k-d-l: it's not about "want" I think, it's more about "you just get it if you contribute"
18:13:01 <k-d-l> okay, maybe we should start a poll on connect first? Yeah. such thank yous are always nice, but at the same we have to find a sponsor.
18:13:13 <suseROCKs> And even been told by my GF, can't you wear something other than openSUSE?  :-D
18:13:20 <prusnak> k-d-l: poll about what?
18:13:35 <AlanClark> cboltz: what's your recommended next step?
18:13:35 <k-d-l> about delivering such gifts.
18:13:36 <cboltz> suseROCKs: take a shirt with tux on it tomorrow *g*
18:14:01 <cboltz> AlanClark: first we should decide if/what we want to do
18:14:05 <robjo> but the "how many" question is certainly valid.
18:14:21 <cboltz> then someone[tm] can calculate the costs
18:14:21 <robjo> How many shirts are we looking to send out?
18:14:23 <suseROCKs> I honestly don't think that a "sponsor" is the way to go  because the sponsor will expect their logo on the shirt as well.  And then we have to go through all kinds of design considerations, etc.
18:14:25 <cboltz> and find out if it is possible
18:14:46 <cboltz> suseROCKs: the sponsor could even be SUSE
18:14:49 <k-d-l> I would suggest to search a sponsor (what about SUSE?) and then create a budget first
18:14:57 <cboltz> AJ didn't promise anything, but also didn't say that it would be impossible
18:15:10 <suseROCKs> cboltz,  well the sponsor right now is considered SUSE by default.  And SUSE indicates its costly
18:16:03 <cboltz> k-d-l: that makes it difficult for us _and_ the sponsor because nobody knows how much money would be needed
18:16:13 <suseROCKs> here's my concern about the thread discussion so far.   It doesn't make clear that there is a biting cost factor associated with tshirts.     So people didn't really give "something other than a tshirt" enough thought.  That's why we haven't seen many cool alternative suggestions.
18:16:17 <AlanClark> anything we do is going to incur cost. Let's focus on what we really want to do, then we'll find a sponsor.
18:16:20 <robjo> What are the proposed criteria to qualify for the gift?
18:17:11 <cboltz> yes, asking a sponsor "we need xxx � for yyy" (and risk to fail) is the way to go
18:17:13 <suseROCKs> robjo,   You're a member.  That's the only criteria we use so far
18:17:30 <robjo> AlanClark: agreed, anything physical will have shipping cost
18:17:54 <robjo> suseROCKs: works for me but then it should not be named a "contributor gift"
18:17:56 <prusnak> we should start revoking membership status for those who don't vote in the elections two times then
18:18:06 <prusnak> so we get rid of inactive members
18:18:12 <suseROCKs> robjo,   But you don't become a member unless you're a contributor
18:18:13 <robjo> I'm certain we have "inactive" members
18:18:21 <suseROCKs> although you can be a contributor without being a member.  True
18:18:37 <cboltz> robjo: any "manual" selection of people would cause lots of work and is probably impossible
18:19:00 <AlanClark> ok - we have 3 subtopics here.  1 - decide if/what we want to do 2 - determine a  criteria 3- determine a sponsor.  I recommend that we have cboltz focus on the 1, then let's tackle the others
18:19:00 <robjo> cboltz: I agree, that's why I asked the question
18:19:03 <gmzysk> What about the removal of board members for actions not becoming of the board?
18:19:07 <warlordfff> prusnak:  +1
18:19:09 <suseROCKs> We should list it as a benefit (thus encouraging more people to apply for membership) that you'll get gifts with each release cycle.
18:19:14 <cboltz> we already have a small additional requirement: enter or confirm your address in connect
18:19:21 <cboltz> I hope this filters out inactive members
18:19:36 <robjo> AlanClark: +1
18:19:38 <prusnak> cboltz: good point
18:20:23 <AlanClark> ok guys let's stay on task here so that we can keep the meeting on target.
18:20:30 <gmzysk> So, I will repeat. Members of the board, how will you enforce that for members of the board?
18:20:35 <cboltz> AlanClark: the criteria was already decided some meetings ago (and is written to bugzilla) ;-)
18:21:15 <gmzysk> You will not get away with what you did, so you better answer!!!!!!
18:21:21 <AlanClark> cboltz: ok, good
18:21:48 <gmzysk> Once again members of the board who do not listen, what will you do?
18:21:51 <robjo> gmzysk: The board answers to membership, what's your problem?
18:22:11 <mrdocs> gmzysk: please let us discuss the topic at hand.. its just being polite....
18:22:25 <mrdocs> we can take this up in Q&A afterwards
18:22:41 <gmzysk> robjo: Recently two members of the board made a decison without consenting the rest of the board
18:22:57 <robjo> back to th etshirts, andvantage is that they are pretty light and should be easy to ship, i.e. pretty cheap
18:22:57 <gmzysk> So, how do we deal with that?
18:23:05 <gmzysk> This is a seriuos issue
18:23:22 <AlanClark> gmzysk: you are off topic
18:23:22 <gmzysk> And o none of the members of the board have addressed it
18:23:30 <cboltz> gmzysk: maybe (I don't know the details), but it has nothing to do with contributor gifts ;-)
18:23:37 <cboltz> please discuss it later in Q&A
18:23:39 <robjo> gmzysk: yes, but has nothing to do with the contributor gift, lets tsick to the topic at hand.
18:23:40 <gmzysk> AlanClark: you are one of those people and you know it
18:24:01 <gmzysk> AlanClark: And so do MANY others
18:24:16 <robjo> gmzysk: later please
18:24:16 <k-d-l> gmzysk later, okay?
18:24:31 <prusnak> gmzysk: please try to stay on topic and we will address your issues in Q&A section
18:24:38 <AlanClark> cboltz: what would you like to propose to resolve the "determine if/what"
18:24:57 <gmzysk> Bikeshedding again
18:25:04 <cboltz> the most welcome gift seem to be t-shirts (or polos if you want a better quality)
18:25:33 <cboltz> one of the reasons is that you can wear them at events etc.
18:25:33 <warlordfff> cboltz:  +1
18:25:47 <cboltz> and show off "I contribute to openSUSE"
18:25:56 <mrdocs> +1 for polo shirts
18:26:02 <mrdocs> if its doable
18:26:19 <k-d-l> +1 for the shirts
18:26:21 <manugupt1> +1 for polo shirts.. also if the design is given I can ask local charges too ( might be cheap for us )
18:26:40 <cboltz> (which is different to the "normal" openSUSE t-shirts and the reason why I proposed to have something special from the beginning)
18:26:41 <warlordfff> yeap and all give sizes
18:26:56 <cboltz> manugupt1: yes, local production could help saving costs
18:26:57 <suseROCKs> You know,  tshirts can be shipped in little packaging like in tubes or vacuum squares.  Might make it even cheaper to send out
18:27:16 <prusnak> okay, so is there anything else to discuss than just how to get a sponsor to make them?
18:27:25 <robjo> suseROCKs: +1
18:27:27 <cboltz> we could also try to find someone who distributes them in a country to save shipment costs
18:28:00 <manugupt1> cboltz: Locally it will take about 7 euro / tshirt with one or 2 colors and good quality I guess for like 30 tshits just for info in India
18:28:18 <AlanClark> cboltz and others.  Those are good ideas tha we can chase offline.
18:28:26 <suseROCKs> let's discuss logistics off-meeting.   We at least have a consensus on what we want to send out.
18:28:28 <cboltz> that sounds much cheaper than the shipment costs (and customs) :-)
18:28:37 <prusnak> yep i think this discussion belongs to the mailing list
18:28:40 <AlanClark> cboltz: did you want to poll or go with a polo shirt recommendation?
18:28:45 <robjo> cboltz: yes, if we are OK with some delay, maybe we can stick shirts in people's suitcases when they travel to a given country
18:29:47 <cboltz> AlanClark: it looks like everyone here likes the idea, and a polo is better than a t-shirt
18:30:00 <cboltz> so: yes, I recommend a polo shirt
18:30:01 <suseROCKs> I only have one final suggestion on this topic.    Insted of polling tshirts vs. polo, let's open up a design poll and whatever is the best design that will influence whether it is a tshirt or polo
18:30:30 <robjo> When I did some quick search for oSC shirts I found companies that do shirts for around $6
18:30:53 <cboltz> suseROCKs: do you think there are designs that will only fit on a t-shirt _or_ a polo?
18:31:09 <suseROCKs> cboltz,   yes
18:31:14 <AlanClark> ok let's go with a shirt. Let's work the details outside of this meeing.  cboltz would you setup a IRC or email thread so that we can work the details?
18:31:29 <suseROCKs> A polo is more "logo-type" whereas a tshirt is more "anything goes"  :-)
18:31:39 <cboltz> I'll send a mail to the project mailinglist
18:32:10 <cboltz> one last question: do we stay with "once per release" (which is what most people seem to prefer)?
18:32:12 <robjo> also please set up a wiki page where people can upload design proposals.
18:32:32 <cboltz> robjo: good idea
18:32:33 <suseROCKs> cboltz,  +1 to per release
18:32:35 <robjo> and we need a time line for submitting the proposals and final vote
18:32:40 <AlanClark> I'd suggest breaking into several subtopics:  1. Shirt type (polo, t-shirt, ..) 2. design 3. how to distribute 4. sponsor(s)
18:33:00 <AlanClark> 5. timeline
18:33:18 <cboltz> AlanClark: good point - that makes several mails, but keeps the discussion readable ;-)
18:33:40 <warlordfff> AlanClark:  +1
18:34:01 <AlanClark> #info cboltz to create email threads to determine details for contributor gifts:
18:34:03 <AlanClark> several subtopics:  1. Shirt type (polo, t-shirt, ..) 2. design 3. how to distribute 4. sponsor(s)
18:34:04 <AlanClark> [12:36] <AlanClark> 5. timeline
18:34:13 <AlanClark> ok that #info didn't work
18:35:26 <AlanClark> #info cboltz to create email threads to determine details for contributor gifts including shirt type, design, distribution, sponsors, timeline
18:35:37 <AlanClark> very good Thank cboltz!
18:35:46 <AlanClark> cboltz anything more?
18:36:07 <cboltz> no, that's it for now
18:36:14 <cboltz> (and I finally have to leave ;-)
18:36:25 <robjo> cboltz: thanks for the effort
18:36:42 <AlanClark> ok, next AI
18:37:10 <AlanClark> manu - any update on the google code in that we should discuss here?
18:37:18 <manugupt1> AlanClark: Hi yes..
18:37:45 <manugupt1> First of all I must say thanks a lot to everyone in and out of meeting for making the list of tasks
18:38:07 <manugupt1> Some tasks are suited to GCI while some are not,, if No one minds them I had like to edit them this weekend
18:38:34 <manugupt1> vuntz:  and prusnak are the admins again for GCi and results will be out by 9th Novemeber and yes we already submitted the applications
18:38:34 <robjo> manugupt1: Please let students decide what is appropriate for them.
18:38:43 <robjo> manugupt1: no editing, IMHO
18:39:17 <manugupt1> robjo: Yes.. but the tasks vary from usually a few hours to days, but some are simply not
18:39:39 <manugupt1> as they are from 13-17, however I will do anything with prior consent from the mentor who has added himself to the task
18:39:57 <manugupt1> Since its a no from you I wont touch it robjo
18:40:06 <prusnak> btw wikipage is at http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:GCI , list of tasks is at http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:GCI_tasks
18:40:23 <suseROCKs> robjo, I don't think GCI works the same way as GSoC worked.   This one we have to assign tasks rather than let students propose tasks.   (esp. since these tasks are to be approved before the start of GCI)
18:41:22 <manugupt1> Does that sound good to everyone?
18:41:29 <AlanClark> +1
18:41:32 <suseROCKs> +1 manugupt1
18:41:33 <robjo> suseROCKs: but if we assign, that would mean we have to have a "resume" from every student
18:41:38 <mrdocs> +1
18:42:15 <suseROCKs> robjo,   No  we don't assign tasks to a specific person.  We assign (Define) tasks.  And students look at the list and grab what they can
18:42:28 <suseROCKs> or am I wrong, manugupt1?
18:43:03 <manugupt1> I think the mentor has a choice in determining the student too
18:43:25 <manugupt1> Because at the end mentor decides if the student has completed the task or not
18:43:57 <suseROCKs> well I guess that's something to be clarified on the mentor ML
18:44:05 <warlordfff> the mentor can pick or not the student, also he can reject a student
18:44:14 <warlordfff> during the task
18:44:49 <AlanClark> robjo: did that answer your question?
18:44:52 <warlordfff> that is what I asked and learned
18:45:18 <AlanClark> any other questions for manugupt1?
18:45:33 <warlordfff> spam: the Greek Fedora community will work for openSUSE tasks here in Greece ;-)
18:45:54 <manugupt1> warlordfff: Good :)
18:46:09 <warlordfff> yeap ;-)
18:46:14 <manugupt1> warlordfff: get gentoo too :P
18:46:18 <robjo> AlanClark: didn't really have a question, just pointed out that IMHO we should let students decide whether they feel capable of completing the task, rather than playing "god" and deciding for them what is suitable.
18:46:39 <warlordfff> robjo:  +1
18:46:40 <AlanClark> robjo: ok.  manugupt1:  What more is needed from the community at this point? Do we have sufficient mentors?
18:47:27 <manugupt1> AlanClark: We have a sizeable number of mentors but the more the better, and we lack code related tasks ( like bug triaging and code refactoring and other stuff ) so we need more of them
18:48:23 <robjo> manugupt1: we have the cross links to "junior bugs" and I think we have "packaging" on the list, that ought to be sufficient
18:48:41 <AlanClark> #info Everyone please look at the GCI task list and volunteer to mentor
18:48:45 <robjo> as a distro our focus is on packaging, not necessarily coding
18:49:09 <manugupt1> robjo: yes .. but there are bug fixes, bug triaging etc ec
18:49:12 <AlanClark> Thanks manugupt1anything else to discuss on this topic?
18:49:25 <manugupt1> I dont think so..
18:49:27 <warlordfff> yeah, Lets Rock them
18:49:30 <warlordfff> ;-)
18:49:36 <manugupt1> I would wait for the results now
18:49:51 <manugupt1> as vuntz suggested
18:50:26 <AlanClark> manugupt1:  Thanks for your leadership on this. The list looks great.  Hopefully we will get lots of students!
18:50:28 <robjo> Lets see if we get accepted.
18:50:56 <AlanClark> ok, let's move to the board AI's
18:51:18 <AlanClark> The Board AI's:  http://bit.ly/opensuse_board_ais
18:51:58 <robjo> AlanClark: you're up ;) foundation?
18:52:12 <AlanClark> yes - the first one is assigned to me.
18:52:18 <AlanClark> Here's a quick update.
18:52:51 <AlanClark> I am focused on the budget and finance area.
18:52:58 <AlanClark> at the moment.
18:53:23 <AlanClark> I've met with SUSE Accounting and General Ledger teams.
18:53:44 <AlanClark> I'm in the queue to meet with The Tax and Finance teams.
18:54:28 <AlanClark> The topic and question that I'm pursuing, is what/how we run a budget within the foundation and account for the funds.
18:54:41 <AlanClark> I'm getting myself into all kinds of topics
18:54:58 <gmzysk> And trouble too
18:55:06 <AlanClark> including "the paypals" of the world.
18:55:20 <robjo> AlanClark: still working on the list about what the community has to take over when we have the foundation, as discussed at oSC?
18:55:34 <robjo> gmzysk: please
18:55:58 <AlanClark> robjo: yes that's partly what started me down this path.
18:56:15 <robjo> AlanClark: cool thanks
18:56:34 <AlanClark> The tax and finance is going to take a couple more weeks. (They are working on the end of year books at the moment)
18:56:48 <AlanClark> I'll give an update again in a couple weeks.
18:57:18 <AlanClark> In the mean time, anyone want to help me on the budget side of things aka spreadsheet for similar?
18:57:35 <AlanClark> any questions on this topic?
18:57:37 <robjo> AlanClark: Other than the finance stuff is the "foundation creation process" moving forward again, it appeared stuck for a while?
18:58:17 <robjo> Attachmate legal on board now?
18:58:38 <AlanClark> robjo: the main "stuck" is my needing to figure this area out for legal and others
18:58:49 <robjo> ok
18:59:10 <AlanClark> It's more complicated than I originally thought.
18:59:25 <robjo> it always is ;)
18:59:48 <AlanClark> yup, I'm learning about PCI
18:59:58 <manugupt1> PCI??
19:00:32 <AlanClark> The payment card industry.  (think handling credit card information)
19:00:48 <manugupt1> Ok.. I thought something else
19:01:01 <AlanClark> any other questions on this topic?
19:01:24 <AlanClark> next AI - prusnak any update
19:01:33 <prusnak> no updates
19:01:44 <prusnak> unfortunately
19:01:49 <AlanClark> ok, let's move to the next agenda item
19:02:09 <AlanClark> #topic status reports
19:02:42 <AlanClark> manugupt1 gave us an update on GCI.
19:02:52 <AlanClark> any other project related status reports?
19:04:20 <AlanClark> ok, then let's move to the next agenda item
19:04:31 <AlanClark> #topic 2012 elections
19:05:13 <AlanClark> Would anyone from the election commitee like to provide an update?
19:05:55 <suseROCKs> I do have one question....
19:06:14 <suseROCKs> in last meeting, we all emphasized it was important to discuss with membership team regarding the election schedule.
19:06:36 <suseROCKs> It's kind of moot now since the timeline is now publicly announced, but did the membership team ever get contacted?   Board never received any confirmation of this.
19:08:35 <mrdocs> suseROCKs: yes good question
19:09:11 <AlanClark> suseROCKs:  Perhaps we should follow up with the membership committee to see if/what help they will need given the election deadlines.
19:09:52 <suseROCKs> I just want to make sure they don't feel blindsided.   That's what they felt in the last round.
19:10:16 <AlanClark> yes I remember the discussion.
19:10:27 <gmzysk> suseROCKs: That is a funny comment coming from you!!!
19:11:21 <warlordfff> suseROCKs:  yeap I sent an email and never got an answer
19:11:31 <warlordfff> so we moved on further
19:11:47 <suseROCKs> warlordfff,   you sent it to membership ML or?
19:12:01 <warlordfff> I send it to the list that is on the wiki
19:12:06 <warlordfff> as contact
19:12:06 <suseROCKs> ok
19:12:20 <suseROCKs> then its a fair decision warlordfff
19:12:27 <warlordfff> I can find it and forward it to you if you like
19:12:29 <suseROCKs> and I support it  :-)
19:12:41 <warlordfff> ;-)
19:12:42 <AlanClark> warlordfff:  Thank you for extending that effort.
19:13:03 <suseROCKs> nah warlordfff   We take your word  :-)
19:13:20 <warlordfff> thanks ;-)
19:13:56 <AlanClark> anything else on this topic?
19:15:22 <AlanClark> warlordfff: Tell the team they did a great job on the announcement email
19:15:30 <AlanClark> ok, next topic
19:15:35 <warlordfff> ok AlanClark
19:15:40 <AlanClark> #topic permission requests
19:16:26 <AlanClark> Permission requests need to be voted upon by the Board members. Members of the community are invited to provide insight and comments.
19:16:52 <AlanClark> We have 2 permission requests on today's agenda
19:16:55 <suseROCKs> I saw a proposal for tunisian openSUSE website.  I give +1 to that
19:17:24 <AlanClark> The first is a request from the Tunisian Ambassadors for the creation of opensuse.tn
19:17:25 <warlordfff> is not that legal?
19:17:57 <warlordfff> they said they have a problem with the owner,am I right?
19:18:13 <k-d-l> wasn´t that the guys in romania
19:18:16 <k-d-l> ?
19:18:29 <prusnak> no, it was romania, the second one
19:18:40 <warlordfff> maybe I am wrong, sorry
19:18:54 <prusnak> +1 for opensuse.tn
19:18:58 <warlordfff> ok I am wrong
19:18:59 <k-d-l> +1 too
19:19:06 <mrdocs> +1 opensuse.tn
19:19:28 <AlanClark> Do we have any of the Tunisian Ambassadors present?
19:20:04 <suseROCKs> Tunisia just had an 80% election turnout.  Lets make sure they do 80+% for openSUSE elections too  :-)
19:21:11 <AlanClark> I would like to make the following proposal.
19:22:44 <AlanClark> Actually I have a question to the board before I make a proposal
19:23:42 <AlanClark> Actually my question isn't just to the board, but the members as well.
19:24:10 <AlanClark> In the email, they stated that they would like to create the website with tutorials, articles, etc...
19:24:38 <AlanClark> Would we prefer that they do that on opensuse.tn or have opensuse.tn redirect to opensuse.org?
19:25:39 <suseROCKs> would be nice to have it redirected to the tunisian instance of our wiki (do have that?) but ultimately there are other things they could be doing on that website as well that wouldn't necessarily be redirected
19:25:45 <robjo> If they run opensuse.tn independently of .org then I am not in favor of this
19:26:12 <robjo> why would opensuse.tn not be a redirect to .or with a parameter that shows localized pages?
19:26:50 <suseROCKs> robjo,  I guess it depends on what they're doing.    In general, I would encourage folks to redirect to a central place, yes
19:27:13 <suseROCKs> but I don't think we should "require" them, but rather offer them guidance.  They may not realize the capabilities here.
19:27:19 <prusnak> maybe then don't want to have just wiki
19:27:33 <suseROCKs> exactly  prusnak
19:27:44 <prusnak> but i agree about guidance thingie
19:28:03 <mrdocs> let's not limit them, but advise them we could offer them wiki space
19:28:06 <mrdocs> eg
19:28:07 <robjo> but then we loose this at .org
19:28:15 <mrdocs> tn.opensuse.org ?
19:28:23 <AlanClark> Do we have some written guidence that we can point them to?
19:28:34 <manugupt1> Maybe offer them a combination of both like have them redirected to wiki, but they can also like some article blog or something like that
19:28:49 <robjo> if they add tutorials and whatever that is completely independent from .org we loose info.
19:28:57 <suseROCKs> AlanClark,  I don't think we have a very well coordinated FAQ on this kind of stuff.   (Could be wrong)    It's something we should strive for though, yes
19:29:09 <warlordfff> I can help them with that
19:29:14 <robjo> Having this stuff at .org might inspire others to translate the tutorials etc.
19:29:30 <warlordfff> maybe after the elctions I could also write some related documentation
19:29:31 <mrdocs> robjo: exactly.. and as it will mostly likely be in Arabic, it could be interesting for other Arabic readers
19:29:45 <prusnak> robjo: you are still expecting they are trying to start a wiki
19:29:57 <AlanClark> ah warlordfff:  you could really be a great guide for them.
19:29:58 <prusnak> which might not be true
19:30:05 <robjo> prusnak: no, I said tutorial
19:31:00 <suseROCKs> there's also the concern that as we proliferate openSUSE sites, we disstort the openSUSE message across the board
19:31:03 <robjo> The audio portion of a video can be translated, or the video can be subtitled, whatever
19:31:23 <warlordfff> AlanClark:  I would be glad too, just tell them to get in touch with me
19:31:24 <robjo> suseROCKs: +1
19:31:28 <suseROCKs> but that's something we should address in some kind of task force to look at the overall symptoms and solutions rather than trying to figure it out here in a trademark topic discussion
19:31:31 <prusnak> i think this is not for us to decide
19:31:51 <prusnak> just tell me they have a yes for registering a domain and they can consider redirecting it to tn.o.o
19:32:02 <warlordfff> I can give them great reasons to stay on the wiki and not make an independent site
19:32:03 <prusnak> because that's what's the best from the project perspective
19:32:07 <robjo> I think this requires more discussion prior to a "trademark" vote
19:32:58 <prusnak> the trademark vote had happened
19:33:12 <suseROCKs> robjo,   Not really,  we approve such domain requests in the past with the one caveat,  you don't shed openSUSE in a negative light.     We can't change the rules here for tunisia what we've already done for other countries
19:33:17 <warlordfff> AlanClark and the others from the board tought me well on that
19:33:19 <prusnak> or not?
19:33:42 <suseROCKs> prusnak,   we voted  :-)
19:33:44 <prusnak> ah it was +1 from non-board member :-/
19:33:57 <AlanClark> to warlordfff's point.  Novell, as the trademark owner, needs to purchase the domain.
19:34:15 <robjo> suseROCKs: ok, was not aware of that
19:34:22 <warlordfff> they can use it for re-direction
19:34:22 <AlanClark> So here is my proposal for a board vote:
19:34:49 <AlanClark> 1. That  Alan work with legal to have them purchase the rights to the domain for 2 years
19:35:10 <AlanClark> if it can be acquired for a "reasonable" amount of $$
19:35:57 <suseROCKs> umm  I think that's going to befuddle things
19:36:04 <prusnak> i vote against that
19:36:12 <AlanClark> why?
19:36:18 <mrdocs> has this happened before eg novell buying the domain ?
19:36:26 <suseROCKs> First of all, if that's the case, then Novell should just make life easier and buy all openSUSE.xx's out there and be done with it.
19:36:27 <prusnak> because by the time they'll have opensuse.tn they will go somewhere else
19:36:44 <prusnak> and i disagree that novell needs to purchase the domain
19:37:06 <gmzysk> Prusnak: +1 They don't by law have to
19:37:18 <suseROCKs> Second, we want to encourage people to spread the word of openSUSE gospel.  If we add this layer of bureaucracy, then people won't feel as motivated to do some potentially creative things in their corner of the world
19:37:29 <manugupt1> I agree with prusnak and suseROCKs
19:37:30 <prusnak> we can enforce the trademark if they do something bad on this site
19:37:35 <gmzysk> Novell just needs to give them the rights to use the trademark, that is it
19:37:42 <prusnak> but please let's not overdo this
19:38:38 <gmzysk> It seems to me that Novell is trying to heavy hand the community here with misleading information!!!
19:38:52 <prusnak> gmzysk: please hold your horses
19:39:11 <gmzysk> prusnak: I am trying
19:39:24 <AlanClark> I'm surprised by your responses.  I was looking at it as an expense that the Amabassadors wouldn't have to cover.
19:40:00 <gmzysk> A domain at 50 euro per year?
19:40:15 <mrdocs> AlanClark: I have no objection to buying the domains, but im concerned about adding delay and bureaucracy
19:40:24 <warlordfff> 23 per 2 years
19:40:30 <manugupt1> same here
19:40:43 <gmzysk> warlordfff: even better ;-)
19:40:54 <warlordfff> it's really easier to buy that themselves
19:40:58 <manugupt1> Its actually an ambassador benefit warlordfff ;)
19:41:02 <manugupt1> you can use it
19:41:03 <warlordfff> from my view
19:41:22 <manugupt1> But it should be done quickly imo..
19:41:23 <warlordfff> manugupt1:  yeap
19:41:31 <AlanClark> ok so that leaves the approval of the trademark usage.
19:41:45 <suseROCKs> I just don't think Novell buy the domain is within the spirit of the trademark guidelines we implemented
19:42:04 <suseROCKs> However... I think it is a nice gesture on Novell (or SUSE)'s part if they offer to reimburse your costs for purchasing a domain
19:42:14 <warlordfff> it will be much quicker to purchase it themselves +1 suseROCKs
19:42:37 <warlordfff> SUSE has actually the legal right so...
19:42:45 <manugupt1> Reimbursement is a nice idea, once the site is functional for the ambassadors.. but thats a different topic I guess
19:43:13 <jospoortvliet> manugupt1: especially because we're talking about a small amount and Novell doesn't like reimbursing amounts under 500 euro or so
19:43:17 <warlordfff> local comunities can benefit alot by it
19:43:29 <manugupt1> jospoortvliet: Ah.. I remember :)
19:43:33 <jospoortvliet> :D
19:43:42 <suseROCKs> jospoortvliet,   so we encourage them to dummy up the reimbursement form  :-)
19:43:51 * manugupt1 wishes jospoortvliet makes a local account for the Indians
19:43:56 <jospoortvliet> suseROCKs: you suggest fraud? tssss...
19:44:09 <prusnak> and i think we should replace Novell with SUSE in the sentences anyway, no?
19:44:11 <suseROCKs> hehe
19:44:12 <AlanClark> with the approval of the trademark usage, do you want to propose anything additional?  redirection, work with warlordfff, etc?
19:44:22 <jospoortvliet> manugupt1: hehe it's why a foundation would be good.
19:44:31 <warlordfff> I will be glad to help
19:44:38 <mrdocs> +1 trademark and advise they work with warlordfff :)
19:44:40 <warlordfff> and guide them
19:44:41 <suseROCKs> Guys I need to head out to an appointment.
19:44:44 <manugupt1> Yes..
19:44:51 <mrdocs> and thanks to warlordfff for all his work
19:44:55 <jospoortvliet> suseROCKs: bye!
19:44:59 <jospoortvliet> mrdocs: +1
19:45:02 <AlanClark> suseROCKs: we need to vote before you go
19:45:06 <Ilmehtar> suggestion they work with the ambassador welcome team (ie warlordfff) makes perfect sense to me
19:45:26 <suseROCKs> AlanClark,   Go for it, I'll stick around for votes
19:45:31 <gmzysk> NO suseROCKs you need to stay!!!
19:45:32 <warlordfff> we can actually build a local community there
19:46:10 <gmzysk> suseROCKs needs to explain to the community his recent actions!!!
19:46:30 <AlanClark> gmzysk: I know that you baiting people to get into a flaim fight.  You have been asked by several participants to stop.  As the moderator I'm telling you to stop or you will be banned
19:47:03 <gmzysk> AlanClark: You have no right since you know what I am talking about!!!!
19:47:22 <manugupt1> gmzysk: Please be polite
19:47:45 <gmzysk> manugupt1: You will understand when you find out
19:48:03 <mrdocs> bbi 3
19:48:05 <robjo> gmzysk: We got it that you have issue, please wait and sty on topic or go away and shut up
19:48:26 <suseROCKs> Can we move on with the votes?
19:48:29 <robjo> s/sty/stay/
19:48:38 <AlanClark> ok guys Here's the proposal: That the Board approve the request for the use of the trademark, and ask that they work with warlordfff to align the content with the rest of the project.
19:48:42 <gmzysk> robjo: i got it
19:48:53 <suseROCKs> +1 Al_Cho
19:48:57 <suseROCKs> oops AlanClark
19:49:17 <AlanClark> other board member votes?
19:49:24 <prusnak> +1
19:49:36 <AlanClark> +1
19:49:51 <AlanClark> mrdocs: your vote?
19:50:01 <AlanClark> henne?
19:50:04 <mrdocs> AlanClark: +1 for me as well
19:50:30 <AlanClark> ok, motion carries.  I will take the AI to write up the response to the request
19:50:46 <AlanClark> Thanks suseROCKs for sticking around.
19:51:21 <AlanClark> next topic - Romania
19:51:21 <suseROCKs> Any other votes needed?
19:51:31 <mrdocs> yes thanks Bryen
19:51:35 <AlanClark> suseROCKs: no other votes needed that I am aware of
19:51:51 <suseROCKs> ok thanks guys.  Really need to catch this appointment with dr.   Bye
19:52:04 <jospoortvliet> we'll miss you suseROCKs :D
19:52:07 <jospoortvliet> come back soon...
19:52:13 <AJaeger> bye suseROCKs!
19:52:42 <AlanClark> Romania.  I sent this information over to legal to have them investigate.
19:53:35 <AlanClark> When I looked at the site, there wasn't much there.
19:54:53 <AlanClark> Did anyone see something more?  It's not clear that they are creating much damage to openSUSE
19:55:51 <AJaeger> What was the actual complaint? Let me grab my emails...
19:56:37 <AlanClark> The only message on their site is ,"PRIVATE AREA DOMAIN GO AWAY!!! "
19:57:03 <AlanClark> My recommendation is that we leave to legal.
19:57:16 <prusnak> i think so
19:57:54 <AlanClark> any other comments on this topic?
19:58:31 <AlanClark> ok, let's move to the next topic
19:58:37 <AlanClark> #topic Improvements
19:58:55 <AlanClark> robjo, you've been patiently waiting... want to give us and update
19:59:24 <robjo> Basically focusing on the ML & IRC topics at the moment.
19:59:44 <robjo> Received positive feedback to merging wiki & web lists
19:59:50 <robjo> That would be the first step.
20:00:09 <robjo> feed back for merging cloud and virtualization was mixed.
20:01:04 <robjo> One topic that came up was the naming. People appear to prefer not to start the list name with opensuse as we have opensuse-SOMETHING@opensuse.org
20:01:34 <AlanClark> robjo:  with a mixed response, do have a next step?
20:01:45 <robjo> We still need some kind of "hand to hand" combat for all lists and decide what could be merged and make more proposals
20:02:32 <robjo> My proposal overall would be, evaluate what could/should be merged
20:02:56 <robjo> then send a message to the effected lists with a proposal for merge and a new name.
20:03:17 <robjo> set up a vote for those subscribed on the effected lists
20:03:22 <mrdocs> sounds sensible to me
20:03:50 <AlanClark> and does a majority win or does it need to be %100?
20:04:07 <AJaeger> robjo: henne send already to a couploe of mailing lists an email and suggested the closing.
20:04:19 <robjo> majority wins, there will always be someone who thinks we have to have an ML for every topic under the sun
20:04:30 <AJaeger> See for example: http://lists.opensuse.org/opensuse-wiki/2011-10/msg00002.html
20:04:35 <AlanClark> robjo +1
20:04:44 <robjo> Yes, that was the cloud and virt list, that's where we had mixed response
20:04:55 <AJaeger> So, this is happening already and in most cases the people agreed.
20:05:49 <robjo> oh cool he did the same for web and wiki, that's moving. Great.
20:05:53 <robjo> thanks henne
20:06:04 <AJaeger> robjo: He did it for many lists - I saw it on opensuse-amd64 as well.
20:06:12 <AJaeger> robjo: And on opensuse-boosters
20:06:22 <AJaeger> robjo: You better ask him directly.
20:06:40 <robjo> perfect, then henne should really give an update of what he did, I love that he picked up the ball :D
20:06:42 <AJaeger> I suggest to postpone discussion here until the next meeting with henne participating.
20:07:06 <robjo> AJaeger: +1
20:07:14 <AlanClark> great progress!
20:07:22 <AlanClark> robjo: anything more to discuss?
20:07:23 <robjo> I'll ask henne to update the wiki with all the lists that received a message
20:07:33 <AJaeger> robjo: go for it!
20:08:24 <robjo> AlanClark: No, I will work with henne to get his status on the wiki, once we have a good idea where we stand we can look at IRC and then pick another topic from oSC
20:08:50 <warlordfff> where is Henne?
20:08:58 <AlanClark> very good.  Thank you for pursuing this.  I think that it is really going to help
20:09:32 <AlanClark> warlordfff: Not sure.  There was a holiday yesterday...
20:09:40 <warlordfff> oh ok
20:09:58 <AlanClark> Any other improvement topics from the fate list that we wish to discuss today?
20:10:07 <AJaeger> warlordfff: He's on vacation the whole week
20:10:40 <mrdocs> robjo: thanks for all of this.. appreciated.. much needed housecleaning
20:11:05 <AlanClark> let's move on with the agenda
20:11:15 <AlanClark> #topic Questions and Answers
20:11:44 <robjo> gmzysk: you're up
20:11:47 <AlanClark> Thanks to everyone for hanging in for such a long meeting.  Are there any additional questions?
20:11:49 <gmzysk> Yep I got one: How come I have not received a public apology from the board?
20:11:57 <gmzysk> For their actions
20:12:04 <gmzysk> disrespect
20:12:13 <gmzysk> and top-down decison making
20:12:23 <gmzysk> without even consenting me
20:12:24 <manugupt1> gmzysk: What did the board do first of all?
20:12:25 * tigerfoot thinks that's life outside fantasia land
20:12:37 <manugupt1> tigerfoot: :)
20:12:39 <AlanClark> gmzysk: I know that the board owes you a response to your previous email.  You will receive one
20:12:52 <AlanClark> on the mailing list where you posted your original email.
20:13:02 <gmzysk> AlanClark: You owe the community an aplology
20:13:14 <gmzysk> As does Bryen
20:13:36 <gmzysk> You both made a decsion on behalf of the board without their consent
20:13:41 <gmzysk> about me
20:13:49 <gmzysk> So, an email is not enough
20:14:01 <prusnak> there was no decision
20:14:02 <AlanClark> gmzysk: I won't be baited into an argument or flaim war with you.  If you wish to make a request of the board you may do so
20:14:28 <tigerfoot> warlordfff: can you build a gizmo green cake with apologize (even if we don't know why) ?
20:14:30 <gmzysk> I have written you several times with no response, so don't bikeshed
20:14:32 <robjo> Currently the discussion is without context for many, if it concerns the community at large please provide context
20:14:55 <gmzysk> AlanClark: You will not tell me anything
20:14:56 * tigerfoot ask but no more than 10 lines :D
20:15:20 <gmzysk> The board needs to discuss action against those members of the board
20:15:20 <manugupt1> robjo: Agreed
20:15:42 <gmzysk> prusnak: You know what I am talking about
20:16:02 <gmzysk> No one has contacted me to apologize or explain
20:16:14 <gmzysk> Just igore it right
20:16:15 <prusnak> to everyone: the context is the creation of the community council, we as a board needed more time to polish the details
20:16:36 <gmzysk> And to expolain why I was given a no to it
20:16:43 <prusnak> sadly gregory misinterpreted my email as an ack from the board
20:16:52 <gmzysk> A decision was made
20:16:57 <AlanClark> gmzysk:  I have seen one email from you.  And you are correct that it needs a response. You will receive one as a response to what you sent.
20:17:06 <mrdocs> gmzysk: no no... we only decide here in public votes
20:17:17 <yaloki> ahem
20:17:36 <gmzysk> You have several emails
20:17:40 <yaloki> that is true, in theory, and how it almost always happens
20:17:42 <tigerfoot> why having another instance of what we already have ...
20:17:44 <yaloki> but not as it happened in this case
20:17:52 <prusnak> then we screwed up even more, because we were not able to communicate anything
20:18:09 <robjo> gmzysk: If you want a community council why would you not post this to the project list?
20:18:15 <prusnak> but there was never a decision (either saying no or saying yes)
20:18:22 <manugupt1> gmzysk: Yes why not?
20:18:25 * tigerfoot at least can only agree for the Jedi Council, any other instance is void
20:18:38 <jospoortvliet> gmzysk: note that I didn't say a decision was made. I just told you how the board felt, according to what Alan and Bryen told me. And I said I thought it would make sense to hold off doing this until you would have build up trust in the community. Right now, you're exploding and not acting very professionally, which I think doesn't build up that trust.
20:18:48 <gmzysk> prusnak: yes there was I have an email stating that from Jos
20:19:11 <prusnak> gmzysk: frankly, i don't care about yours correspondence with jos
20:19:37 <gmzysk> prusnak: sure, I get you but leaving me hanging? come on man?
20:19:45 <prusnak> all decisions of the board are made here, in the public
20:19:53 <gmzysk> It has been 6 weeks since the first email
20:20:05 <prusnak> so what i am saying is the we screwed up that we were not able to respond sooner with a decision
20:20:12 <jospoortvliet> robjo: gregory and myself wanted to set up such a CC. We asked the board if they thought it was a good idea and if they would support it. Alan and Bryen said they thought the board wouldn't be comfortable with it considering gregory being so new. So I mailed gregory proposing to hold off from doing it for now.
20:20:28 <gmzysk> So then what do you wan to do about it then?
20:20:40 <gmzysk> Make people wait more?
20:20:50 <gmzysk> How do you propose to move forward?
20:20:59 <robjo> jospoortvliet: Thanks for the context
20:21:05 <jospoortvliet> np
20:21:24 * tigerfoot love patience is a virtue
20:21:27 <prusnak> i don't know
20:21:33 <AJaeger> tigerfoot: +1
20:21:38 <robjo> IMHO a community council would need to be voted on by membership, in which case I wonder what the difference to the board would be.
20:21:38 <prusnak> but i guess we have to wait until the decision is made
20:21:52 <gmzysk> prusnak: When will that be made? A timeframe?
20:21:56 <manugupt1> I guess the board already does that or does not it??
20:22:04 * tigerfoot think it start to be cold outside, propose to post-pond until spring bbq parties
20:22:08 <manugupt1> One of the actions of the board is to resolve conflicts
20:22:19 <AJaeger> I think we have two decisions to make: Will we have a CC - and how should be on it?
20:22:20 <robjo> gmzysk: You are chastising people for voicing their opinion, not a good way to get a welcome response to your requests.
20:22:33 <AJaeger> s/how/who/
20:22:39 <prusnak> manugupt1: the idea was to have a separate body for that, because you might want to resolve the conflicts inside of the board as well (for example)
20:22:44 <yaloki> robjo: no that's not the point
20:22:45 <jospoortvliet> robjo: I think we could start such a thing, the way gregory and myself wanted to do it, it would have no power and people would be free to come to it (or not). But of course it would be nice if the community and esp the board would support it. When they said they probably wouldn't, yet,  I proposed to hold off.
20:22:52 <prusnak> and also it might be a good idea to have trained professionals in CC
20:22:54 <yaloki> robjo: there has been no response from the board in 6 weeks
20:22:58 <gmzysk> robjo: I am not. I am looking for an answer
20:23:03 <manugupt1> prusnak: Well then who will decide confflictws within a CC, its a recursion
20:23:15 <AJaeger> manugupt1: You;)
20:23:22 <prusnak> no it's not, board can decide about conflicts in CC
20:23:26 <prusnak> it just takes time :)
20:23:28 <gmzysk> prusnak: thanks man, I am one of those
20:23:38 <jospoortvliet> manugupt1: note that in the plan gregory and myself made for the CC would not give it any power. If there is a big problem, the board would decide, just like now
20:23:54 <mrdocs> gmzysk: two things:
20:23:59 <gmzysk> yes
20:24:12 <robjo> jospoortvliet: fine, but this should be raised on the project list and not in a "private" e-mail to the board.
20:24:14 <gmzysk> mrdocs: yes
20:24:18 <manugupt1> jospoortvliet: I note that.. but my point is the board is left to do nothing then except handle requests as we do not have a founcation yet
20:24:28 <tigerfoot> jospoortvliet: so what the advantage ? compared to the board if finally the board has to decide ...
20:24:37 <yaloki> manugupt1: that's not really a good reason now, is it
20:24:38 <mrdocs> one, unfortunate that you were given the impression we ok'd things
20:24:41 <jospoortvliet> robjo: we were just seeing if we got support and asking for feedback. No need to start a big (bikeshed) discussion on -project for that...
20:25:01 <jospoortvliet> tigerfoot: the board is mostly engineers. the CC would have people who are qualified to handle conflicts
20:25:08 <yaloki> +1
20:25:16 <gmzysk> mrdocs: ok, but you guys never communicated anything else
20:25:20 <mrdocs> everybody hang 1 please
20:25:20 <tigerfoot> or not from what I saw
20:25:28 <mrdocs> hang on
20:25:38 <manugupt1> yaloki: a separate cc is not worth it imho, we should trust the board to do the right thing, conflicts withing the board is something else, we have done it in the past too
20:25:39 <robjo> jospoortvliet: OK, but then there is no reason to bitch moan and complain at the project meeting if responses are delayed
20:26:06 <yaloki> manugupt1: you don't have the whole context and argumentation
20:26:08 <jospoortvliet> robjo: I admit that it is not exactly showing how to behave properly.
20:26:08 <mrdocs> ok please everyone hang on a couple of mins for comments
20:26:21 <gmzysk> mrdocs: I am listening. Your second point please
20:26:23 <mrdocs> first let's get to the facts
20:26:28 <mrdocs> one, unfortunate that you were given the impression we ok'd things
20:26:39 <gmzysk> ok
20:26:50 <oper4> Hello, I have an opensuse 10.4 machine and I am using clonezile to back up its hdd. When I use the backup hdd to another machines, sometime I am having problems to boot. What and how I can fix such problems?
20:26:55 <mrdocs> that comes from your lack of knowledge of our project works.. no one's fault
20:26:57 <yaloki> !support @ oper4
20:26:57 <SUSEhelp> oper4: General technical support is in #suse (/join #suse), please ask over there
20:27:27 <gmzysk> mrdocs: Maybe, ok, but do not blame that on me please
20:27:38 <mrdocs> gmzysk:  no.. just bad luck
20:27:38 <robjo> oper4: please use #opensuse for help questions, we are in a project meeting
20:27:50 <gmzysk> mrdocs: the second is?
20:28:14 <mrdocs> second part is given the confusion about what was happening and no formal proposal beyond some emails
20:28:31 <mrdocs> confusion from board members not at Brainshare
20:28:44 <gmzysk> Exactly
20:28:49 <mrdocs> so in this case, we had nothing to really act on
20:28:50 <mrdocs> so
20:29:08 <mrdocs> that's one reason you have not had a quick response
20:29:10 <mrdocs> and
20:29:44 <mrdocs> as it is potentially a major change in the way the project, we need concrete details
20:30:05 <mrdocs> and a broad discussion with the member ship in general about this
20:30:18 <mrdocs> and to this day I have no real clear idea what is proposed
20:30:20 <mrdocs> so
20:30:21 <gmzysk> So, you think you will find conrete details without discussing it with me?
20:30:23 <gmzysk> Or Jos and I for that matter?
20:30:30 <mrdocs> apologies for the delay
20:30:45 <gmzysk> So, where do we go from here?
20:30:54 <gmzysk> How do we move forward?
20:31:16 <mrdocs> gmzysk: but on the other hand accusing board members is not a good way to begin a relationship with the community
20:31:54 <mrdocs> i know several of them personally.. I have a lot of respect for their integrity and honesty
20:31:58 <gmzysk> Well, you can't say that how the board handled things is not way to start a good relationship either
20:32:18 <gmzysk> So, in that respect we are both at fault
20:32:25 <mrdocs> and the board members *are* elected.. we do have a certain level of trust by the membership
20:32:34 <AlanClark> gmzysk:  I'll differ with your statement
20:32:47 <gmzysk> except for one th eappointed one
20:32:58 <AJaeger> gmzysk: There's a huge difference - the board did not respond in time at all - you're pushing quite aggressively here.
20:32:58 <gmzysk> AlanClark: How?
20:33:09 <mrdocs> and we have a track record to back that up - even outside of opensuse
20:33:24 <robjo> gmzysk: your comments and personal accusations are getting tiring
20:33:28 <gmzysk> AJaeger: It has been 6 weeks and I pulled my end of the bargain
20:33:33 <mrdocs> so anyone would like to add to the facts ?
20:33:39 <mrdocs> not opinion
20:34:12 <jospoortvliet> let me add something
20:34:20 <gmzysk> robjo: please you do not know all the details
20:34:31 <jospoortvliet> while there has been no official response, 2 board members told me at brainshare they felt that the board would probably not support this
20:34:43 <robjo> gmzysk: your tone of voice has nothing to do with the details
20:35:04 <jospoortvliet> because they felt that gmzysk is quite new and they felt not comfortable having him in such a sensitive position without knowing him or having the community know him
20:35:17 <robjo> gmzysk: further you will find that there is great respect for those on the board within the community, you are not making any frieds here at the moment.
20:35:19 <oper4> sorry I was away, thank you for the information
20:35:29 <jospoortvliet> I relayed this back to gregory, suggesting we should wait doing the CC until gregory had been around for a while longer.
20:35:42 <gmzysk> robjo: Please you do not know all the details, so do not attack
20:36:10 <jospoortvliet> gmzysk: robjo we're attempting to givie the details but you two are interupting :D
20:36:25 <prusnak> and tbh i think the rest of the board which might have been supportive of this initiative in the beginning, won't support the proposal after the recent development
20:36:30 <mrdocs> jospoortvliet: please go ahead
20:36:33 <jospoortvliet> note that in my opinion the board doesn't HAVE to OK the CC but I am not comfortable doing it if the board thinks it is a bad idea.
20:37:17 <gmzysk> prusnak: why is that?
20:37:18 <jospoortvliet> after my email, gregory send the board a mail which, well, wasn't very constructive in my opinion... The board still has not replied
20:37:25 <jospoortvliet> except for now, that is :D
20:37:43 <jospoortvliet> I hope I gave a good overview, that's it mrdocs
20:37:50 <mrdocs> jospoortvliet: thanks
20:37:59 <gmzysk> It has been weeks also with no response: so no not very respectful either
20:38:22 <mrdocs> gmzysk: no its a problem the board itself needs to address
20:38:24 <mrdocs> but
20:39:04 <tigerfoot> gmzysk: there's people outside waiting during months for becoming a member !
20:39:14 <mrdocs> pushing agressively, naturally makes one want to back up and say "What is going on ?"
20:39:16 <oper4> any idea why #opensuse is invite only?
20:39:18 <yaloki> tigerfoot: which isn't acceptable either ..
20:39:20 <yaloki> oper4: it isn't
20:39:24 <yaloki> oper4: /join #suse
20:39:25 <prusnak> oper4: use #suse
20:39:32 <oper4> oh ok
20:39:35 <gmzysk> tigerfoot: this has nothing to do with membership
20:39:39 <mrdocs> tigerfoot: is that currently a problem ?
20:39:59 <robjo> but it is not a board decision, whether or not there is a CC is a decision for membership and needs a discussion on -project the board can way in on that discussion
20:40:12 <gmzysk> mrdocs: well I think you can see why I am angry
20:40:14 <robjo> I am well aware that -project threads get out of hand at time
20:40:20 <tigerfoot> nope just want to say to stressed people to take a breath, go outside make a walk, and come back after 12.1 release, and elections
20:40:26 <tigerfoot> that all
20:40:34 <robjo> however, that's where the discussion belongs
20:40:35 <manugupt1> Exactly
20:40:37 <AJaeger> gmzysk: I think tigerfoot wanted to point out that in openSUSE some things don't move as quickly as some people wish
20:40:38 <mrdocs> tigerfoot: best thing said in the last half hour :)
20:41:07 <jospoortvliet> let me add one thing, btw: after gregory and myself send the proposal to the board for comments, we only got one positive response from pavol. Afer otherwise silent, we decided to move forward and get things up and running. This was stonewalled at the administrative level (setting up a ML) without any explanation. So let me be clear: the frustration from gregory is understandable to say the least.
20:41:09 <mrdocs> gmzysk: we *are* volunteers with family, job and other responsibilties
20:41:10 <gmzysk> Ajaeger: that still does not mean that they cannot write an email saying we are working on it
20:41:40 <yaloki> I agree with jospoortvliet
20:41:49 <warlordfff> gmzysk:  I respect you man but you are over reacting on that man
20:41:54 <yaloki> one thing has to be said though: the way this was handled was terrible
20:41:55 <gmzysk> jospoortvliet yaloki : Thanks for the support
20:41:58 <yaloki> to put it politely
20:42:07 <yaloki> an that shouldn't go out of sight either
20:42:10 <yaloki> s/an/and/
20:42:12 <AlanClark> jospoortvliet: As I understood the CC in the beginning I don't think that it needed board approval, but when someone starts asking for admistrative rights, then that raises questions to the board.
20:42:16 <manugupt1> But why not on -project list thats a question??
20:42:20 <warlordfff> +1 yaloki
20:42:23 <gmzysk> warlordfff: thanks man and I understand your angle
20:42:24 <mrdocs> yaloki: no it has caused some reflection by board members
20:42:39 <yaloki> I sure hope so
20:42:50 <yaloki> I'm as guilty as the next to have way too many things to do
20:42:52 <manugupt1> I have a question here, Can I ask
20:43:00 <robjo> we do not need yet another ML
20:43:01 <mrdocs> manugupt1: please go ahead
20:43:03 <yaloki> and it's not reasonable to expect a response within 1 or 2 days in every case
20:43:12 <yaloki> but emails have remained unanswered for many weeks
20:43:20 <gmzysk> AlanClark: the admin rights were for a list, 1 ML
20:43:39 <AJaeger> yaloki: Will you add to your campaign a "service-level-agreement" for emails? ;)
20:43:44 <AlanClark> gmzysk: and all the admins information
20:43:46 <manugupt1> The only question, is there are a fw people here and they feel it was done behind doors, and nothing on the project list so why not that
20:43:53 <yaloki> AJaeger: no, but decency is not asking for too much I think
20:44:02 <jospoortvliet> manugupt1: because we simply wanted to know what the board thought about it, not what everybody else thought. If the board liked it, we had the support from ppl who have some good experience and we would decide to move forward with it. We don't have to ask anyone for permission anyway
20:44:06 <yaloki> AJaeger: and we both know why it happened that way
20:44:25 <gmzysk> AlanClark: read the rest of the thread, I was not asking for details just who to contact
20:44:35 <manugupt1> But isnt it a too big thing to let the board carry alone and not the members get involved
20:44:57 <yaloki> manugupt1: asking the board wasn't necessarily the end of the story
20:45:08 <yaloki> manugupt1: and, also, you don't need permission to start doing something
20:45:09 <jospoortvliet> robjo: it should be a private, closed ml. but could also be gregory and myself just mailing to each other and people contacting us privately. We just thought a ML, with archives, would be a better, more transparent way to handle things.
20:45:25 <yaloki> it needs legitimacy and trust, which is why I agree that it is very useful that it has backing from the board
20:45:29 <manugupt1> yaloki: Why was not the proposal public that was my question
20:45:37 <yaloki> manugupt1: it wasn't at that point
20:45:39 <warlordfff> may I say something?
20:45:45 <yaloki> warlordfff: shoot :)
20:45:46 <mrdocs> warlordfff: please
20:46:17 <gmzysk> Thanks to the people that support me
20:46:29 <warlordfff> in order to avoid anothe Gnokii situation we made something that one year ago brought the project to a similar situation
20:46:31 <gmzysk> Rather than those that just want to make it all my fault
20:46:35 <jospoortvliet> manugupt1: that is a question only gregory and me can answer. And it is simple: we did not want to bikeshed. We just wanted to JUST DO IT(tm). If people wouldn't like it they could vote with their feet. But before we would go ahead we wanted at least the thoughts of a few key people. Some we spoke to, the board we asked via their mail address.
20:46:43 <robjo> If you guys just wanted to get some feedback then mail to the board is of course just fine, however, you cannot show up here and start demanding apologies for people voicing their opinion and not getting a response
20:46:58 <manugupt1> I agree with robjo here
20:47:12 <manugupt1> to me it sounded like a decision made by someone and forced upon
20:47:19 <gmzysk> robjo: Several people have written the board asking that for me
20:47:25 <yaloki> manugupt1: not at all
20:47:49 <jospoortvliet> manugupt1: robjo maybe gmzysk can't demand an answer from the board in reasonable time but isn't it - well, reasonable, to answer?
20:47:49 <manugupt1> yaloki: I am still not clear what the council will do except for resolve conflicts
20:47:58 <yaloki> manugupt1: well, exactly that
20:48:00 <gmzysk> So, HOW DO WE MOVE FORWARD????????????
20:48:03 <tigerfoot> wtf, it exist thousand of maillist possibility to start over the internet ...
20:48:04 <manugupt1> jospoortvliet: Yes the board should  have answered
20:48:06 <yaloki> manugupt1: be a spot where people can poke for help
20:48:20 <manugupt1> yaloki: What is the board for then?
20:48:32 <yaloki> manugupt1: a lot of other things, with the next board
20:48:42 <tigerfoot> start a private google group, and whatever you need to start, and start
20:48:47 <robjo> jospoortvliet: yes it is reasonable to expect an answer, but demanding apologies is not the best way to get one IMHO
20:49:05 <AJaeger> manugupt1: help with conflicts - not help on e.g. packaging ;)
20:49:07 <gmzysk> prusnak mrdocs: What do you suggest to move forward? A decision please?
20:49:22 <manugupt1> yaloki: AJaeger Well we should see once the roles of the new board is defined right
20:49:34 <warlordfff> sorry guys we took a missundertsnding and made it something Great, it is not, it is a missunderstanding, at least from what I saw and know
20:49:37 <yaloki> manugupt1: let's not go there right now
20:49:39 * manugupt1 is not against it but does not see the point in the present
20:49:46 <prusnak> i think we (the board) should send an apology for not replying sooner and to recommend postponing the creation of CC until there is a better proposal
20:49:52 <robjo> Here is how you move forward, if you want your answer from the board you wait for it. If you are interested in getting a CC started you take it to the -project list with a proposal what it will be and how it will work
20:50:09 * tigerfoot applaud the fail of creating a CC for conflict which auto-generate conflicts before it start :-)
20:50:13 <gmzysk> a better proposal? What?
20:50:14 <prusnak> but that's just my $0.02, not an official board statement
20:50:20 <prusnak> just to be clear
20:50:38 <robjo> you'll get a lot of responses in a short period of time.
20:50:53 <mrdocs> gmzysk: i understand your frustration with this
20:50:55 <mrdocs> but
20:51:02 <mrdocs> let's do this:
20:51:03 <gmzysk> prusnak: the board is guilty of far more than not writing back. The communication could not be worse, imho
20:51:06 <AJaeger> tigerfoot: That's why I agree with prusnak we should not have a CC right now.
20:51:14 <gmzysk> mrdocs: yes
20:51:22 <manugupt1> I agree we should not have it now, maybe later
20:51:27 <tigerfoot> gmzysk: it's the exact reflect of yours ... sorry this one is too easy
20:51:37 <prusnak> gmzysk: i agree, and we are trying to change the way we communicate, but that's a separate issue than CC
20:51:55 <jospoortvliet> robjo: yes they call that a bikeshed. I don't care much about the opinion of most of the ppl on -project, to be honest...
20:52:06 <mrdocs> prusnak: exactly
20:52:07 <gmzysk> AJaeger: Why, you agreed to it also?
20:52:19 <tigerfoot> gmzysk: why not
20:52:25 <warlordfff> anyone can actually follow this conversation or is it just me that is confussed???
20:52:30 <robjo> jospoortvliet: well you should, as community manager, that's the community
20:52:39 <gmzysk> tigerfoot: Why not what?
20:52:42 <yaloki> robjo: "as a community manager" ?
20:52:51 <mrdocs> gmzysk: while I have an great deal of respect for AJaeger, he is not a board member
20:53:04 <yaloki> ok, let's not go there
20:53:09 <tigerfoot> gmzysk: follow your purpose ... you ask aj why he's agree, and so why not
20:53:10 <yaloki> let's not put everything on the table right now
20:53:20 <robjo> jospoortvliet: if you want backdoor private dealings because its easier then we have a sad state of affairs
20:53:31 <gmzysk> tigerfoot: ok
20:53:44 <gmzysk> yaloki: +1
20:54:31 <yaloki> well we can't have it both ways
20:54:32 <AlanClark> ok, we have several threads intermixed.  Let's see if we can bring this to a proposal for going forward.
20:54:42 <AJaeger> gmzysk: I don't think the proposed setup is a good idea anymore - seing the conversations today, if it creates so much discussion and agressiveness, then I don't want one at the moment.
20:54:43 <yaloki> say "just do it" and then say that people must ask for permission on -project
20:54:44 <jospoortvliet> robjo: again it's not about decision making,  greg and me can decide to do this, if -project (or the board) agrees or not. But to know if it's a good idea I want input from people I trust, not from $random_person_ranting_on_-project
20:54:48 <yaloki> but that's yet another topic
20:55:10 <gmzysk> AJaeger: But this was bound to happen and if fixed will only get better
20:55:19 <jospoortvliet> robjo: moreover, most of the hard working ppl in our community have unsubscribed from -project long ago due to the huge bikesheds there. I don't intend to start another one...
20:55:22 <robjo> jospoortvliet: Yes, you can do whatever you want......
20:55:40 <AJaeger> gmzysk: Let's wait and I suggest you get to know openSUSE better - and we get to know you better...
20:56:00 <warlordfff> I agree with AJaeger
20:56:02 <robjo> jospoortvliet: yes community and democracy at work, it's not everyone's cup of tea
20:56:12 <AlanClark> I also agree with AJaeger
20:56:12 <gmzysk> AJaeger: I think that is not a solution after what has happend
20:56:16 <warlordfff> I agree with robjo too
20:56:33 <manugupt1> So can anyone draw up a summary
20:56:40 <AJaeger> robjo: We have no democracy, we have a meritocacy
20:56:55 <warlordfff> yeah I would love to see a summary ;-)
20:57:04 <robjo> gmzysk: Not sure what you are after then, you just heard jos say that you can do whatever you want, so go ahead and see where it goes.
20:57:08 <AJaeger> gmzysk: If that's not a solution, then let's not do it. I'm not confident with moving ahead as proposed at this moment.
20:57:32 <jospoortvliet> robjo: in a meritocracy (we don't have a democracy in openSUE) those who do the work should decide, not those who rant hardest, chasing everyone away, on the ML :D
20:57:57 <manugupt1> jospoortvliet: Yes.. but then all of them have not been included either
20:58:00 <robjo> AJaeger: yes when it comes to the "project", but "project governance" is a democracy, we do vote for things
20:58:04 <gmzysk> robjo: Sure, we were just trying to be transparant that is why we kept in contact with the board
20:58:31 <manugupt1> also it could have been a separate Ml like for strategy
20:58:37 <jospoortvliet> manugupt1: but I do announce it and ppl can complain - in private. because in public some ppl just talk because they want to wave their dick around.
20:58:41 <robjo> transparent to 10 people, whatever
20:58:56 <warlordfff> jospoortvliet:  +1
20:59:13 <yaloki> jospoortvliet: we shouldn't completely dismiss the -project list like this either
20:59:15 <jospoortvliet> robjo: I wrote in my blog about bikeshedding - I'm practising what I preach. I didn't see you disagree with me there :D
20:59:22 <yaloki> jospoortvliet: there are issues, and we must get it fixed
20:59:31 <yaloki> jospoortvliet: but avoiding the list isn't going to help in any way
20:59:36 <jospoortvliet> yaloki: sure not... But to avoid bikeshedding, well, see what I wrote about how to handle things. I do what I wrote :D
20:59:37 <robjo> jospoortvliet: didn't read your blog, sorry
21:00:06 <yaloki> jospoortvliet: I know, but I'd rather still have discussions there, and fix the bikeshedding, rather than not having discussions at all
21:00:08 <manugupt1> jospoortvliet: Propose it and could have said the discussions on this mailing list like the strategy one, would clear some of the mess
21:00:10 <warlordfff> as I said, I would love to see a summary comming out of this  ;-)
21:00:12 <yaloki> but we're digressing again
21:00:30 <jospoortvliet> robjo: manugupt1 see my blog: http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2011/09/bikeshedding-and-cls.html
21:00:32 <gmzysk> Ajaeger: I hope you can see i from my point also. I just ge the short end of the stick, not motivating at all
21:00:40 <robjo> don't get me wrong, I am not happy with the "I have something to say just because" either. But it is part of being in a community
21:00:43 * prusnak has to go, sorry :-/
21:00:52 <jospoortvliet> ttyl prusnak
21:00:54 <manugupt1> jospoortvliet: I have read it :) but did you see my point above
21:00:56 <manugupt1> bye prusnak
21:00:58 <warlordfff> prusnak:  Gn dude
21:01:23 <jospoortvliet> manugupt1: we wanted less ML's, right, see earlier in this discussion :D
21:01:48 <warlordfff> LoL
21:01:54 <manugupt1> jospoortvliet: Yes but if that clears out some of the mess I would go for it ( and less Mls in terms if traffic I think )
21:02:39 <manugupt1> but lets not go into details
21:02:53 <manugupt1> If anyone can summarize it, it would be great for me
21:03:39 <jospoortvliet> well let me do that
21:03:51 <jospoortvliet> the board suggests to wait with a CC until we know greg and greg knows us
21:03:57 <jospoortvliet> that's also what I proposed to him earlier
21:04:07 <jospoortvliet> he seems to say no to that.
21:04:27 <jospoortvliet> no more to discuss, right?
21:04:53 <jospoortvliet> note that we could continue with the CC of course
21:04:56 <jospoortvliet> board likes it or not
21:05:01 <gmzysk> yep
21:05:07 <manugupt1> jospoortvliet: That would be a bad idea
21:05:21 <gmzysk> I think we have enough support
21:05:21 <jospoortvliet> but it's a two-man show and I'd rather not do that so I guess that's of the table too :D
21:05:27 <manugupt1> sorry it would be chaos
21:05:56 <warlordfff> +1 manugupt1
21:05:59 <warlordfff> but
21:06:00 <jospoortvliet> gmzysk: that's where I disagree...I feel we don't, right now.j
21:06:05 <warlordfff> on the other hand
21:06:07 <robjo> Again, if you want to be hard nosed about it, go ahead and stand up the CC, see how the community reacts and what kind of help/support you get
21:06:25 <robjo> you will net get around a discussion on -project no mater what ;)
21:06:47 <warlordfff> robjo said what I wanted to say exactly
21:06:49 <gmzysk> Sure, but not giving us any support will only screw the community
21:07:03 <manugupt1> jospoortvliet: Right now is really a good answer, give it time I must say l hurrying is no solution
21:07:16 <manugupt1> gmzysk: Dont dare threaten the community now, you have been rude enough
21:07:19 <manugupt1> I can be too
21:07:29 <warlordfff> gmzysk:  support is not something you can force to independent people
21:07:35 <robjo> gmzysk: No, you cannot have it both ways. you either wait as suggested, if that is not an option for you don't expect support
21:07:39 <manugupt1> just dont test my patience
21:07:43 <gmzysk> Manugupt1 : Calm down I am not threating the community
21:08:19 <gmzysk> manugupt1: and you do not know what you are talking about
21:08:29 <warlordfff> well
21:08:46 <gmzysk> warlordfff: Who said anything about forcing support?
21:08:55 <robjo> gmzysk: You strike me as the person who thinks they should get commit privileges to a project because you submitted one patch, that's not how things work
21:08:55 <jospoortvliet> look, the CC was supposed to be started by Greg and myself. I think we can agree that right now it wouldn't serve much purpose to start it. So I'm out unless we can agree to wait at least 3-4 months. If at that point things look better, we do it. If not, we wait again :D
21:09:04 <warlordfff> gmzysk:  manugupt1 reacted at what he saw and in what he saw he is right man, you cannot blame him for that
21:09:21 <gmzysk> People can use the CC or not, it is up to them and always will be. This is Free Software!!
21:09:34 <AJaeger> gmzysk: The community is not screwed, I have seen people in the project sucessfully in conflict resolution. The difference would be the as needed versus a permanent thingy.
21:09:54 <manugupt1> jospoortvliet: +1 to it give it time, wait for it :)
21:10:00 <manugupt1> I need just that
21:10:30 <Ilmehtar> I have an opinion. from my perspective gmzysk has proposed a CC, suggesting the project needing such a body to help with conflicts. Then, because of perceptions about how the suggestion was handled, the situation has decended into one which, ironically, would benefit from the a CC.
21:10:45 <gmzysk> AJaeger: I am not saying the community is screwed. I am saying neglecting a group to handle these issue would screw the community by not giving it that support
21:10:48 <robjo> that's just not the way it works in some projects one has to contribute for years before getting commit access to the project repo
21:11:08 <yaloki> robjo: not sure the analogy works here :)
21:11:09 <manugupt1> Ilmehtar: But do the people here are fit for the CC and the ones who are proposing it
21:11:18 <gmzysk> Ilmehtar: Spot on!
21:11:39 <Ilmehtar> its my opinion that the dispute does highlight a potential need for the CC, but the behaviour exhibited during this dispute suggests we either need more time to get to know greg (and visa versa)
21:11:39 <manugupt1> I am not considering jospoortvliet here
21:11:39 <yaloki> manugupt1: jos has studied psychology and gmzysk does conflict resolution professionally
21:11:44 <AJaeger> Let's stop the discussion here. With jospoortvliet's statement above, we've reached an end.
21:11:56 <yaloki> manugupt1: I think a valid point is that people are not elected on the board for their skills in conflict management
21:12:21 <Ilmehtar> so my opinion would be strongly in agreement with jos..either wait, or I dont think its going to work with the current situation
21:12:23 <manugupt1> yaloki: But gmzysk being rude here deferred him, if it was done at #suse he would have been banned long ago wont he?
21:12:44 <robjo> hard to believe with that attitude
21:13:30 <manugupt1> same here
21:13:34 <robjo> +1 AJaeger
21:13:48 <robjo> This hos nothing to do anymore with the project meeting
21:13:48 <yaloki> only a very very few people have the whole picture
21:13:55 <AlanClark> Ok, it is time to end the meeting. If you wish to continue please feel free to do so at the end of the meeting.
21:14:01 <robjo> I make a motion to adjourn
21:14:13 <AlanClark> we have a motion to adjourn
21:14:21 <manugupt1> Lets close it then
21:14:26 <tigerfoot> we need a CC to resolve conflicts the CC invent to justify the fact we need to create the CC because there's conflict that raised during the CC's creation
21:14:27 <gmzysk> Thanks for the support guys!
21:14:30 <AlanClark> Thanks all for attending.
21:14:37 <mrdocs> AlanClark: +1
21:14:38 * tigerfoot love absurdity too
21:14:47 <AlanClark> #endmeeting