19:01:24 #startmeeting 19:01:24 Meeting started Wed Jan 12 19:01:24 2011 UTC. The chair is henne. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:01:24 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:01:33 #meetingtopic openSUSE Board Meeting 19:01:55 #chair suseROCKs yaloki AlanClark rhorstkoetter prusnak 19:01:55 Current chairs: AlanClark henne prusnak rhorstkoetter suseROCKs yaloki 19:02:11 cherio fellas :) 19:02:31 we have to talk about the agenda 19:02:56 what do we want to talk about today? 19:03:12 on the wiki we have 19:03:16 1. openSUSE Foundation 19:03:16 2. Membership approval team - replace people who don't vote with somebody else 19:03:19 3. Where do we need to improve ? 19:03:22 4. Questions & Answers 19:03:33 hmm 19:03:43 alan had 3 sub topics for the foundation topic 19:03:46 right? 19:03:51 I wonder if #2 is even a board topic 19:04:05 henne: I'll lump them into #1 19:04:22 what about the private section? 19:04:34 do we still need to discuss something there? 19:04:53 * vuntz volunteers to get removed from the membership approval team 19:04:54 :-) 19:05:10 rhorstkoetter: we talked about some of the things already shortly after the project meeting... 19:05:13 * prusnak re 19:05:31 rhorstkoetter: as everyone but you was available. sorry 19:05:35 henne: I see 19:06:00 henne: sorry but I had some other appointments during project meeting 19:07:01 we should have trademark discussion (which really is a variety of topics) as a topic on the agenda 19:08:09 trademark discussion? 19:08:40 yes there's a variety, as I mentioned in the mailing list a few times lately 19:09:04 plus one more... Kim Groneman wants us to look into opensuse.us and decide if they are acting appropriately or not 19:10:04 opensuse.us ... this has a history 19:10:06 :) 19:10:21 yes and some legitimate concerns out there about it too 19:10:34 but let's put that under trademark topic and get the ball rolling on Topic #1 19:10:53 we don't have a trademark topic 19:10:57 (yet) 19:11:03 that's why I'm saying to add it :-D 19:11:22 and here i am. thinking we have a shorter meeting... 19:11:43 better order more pizza :-) 19:12:32 okay then the agenda of this meeting is: 19:12:40 1. openSUSE Foundation 19:12:51 2. Membership Approval Team 19:12:59 3. Trademarks 19:13:05 4. Where do we need to improve? 19:13:10 5. Question and Answers 19:13:47 okay? 19:13:50 +1 19:13:52 +1 19:13:56 +1 19:13:59 alrighty. first topic then 19:14:07 #topic openSUSE Foundation 19:14:53 AyyCeee.. You have the floor :-) 19:14:54 so here we go 19:15:06 * rtyler listens in 19:15:35 want me to start with this one? 19:16:11 +1 19:16:21 sure. you cam up with the sub-topics 19:16:35 +1 19:16:35 ok 19:17:03 A couple observations then a followup from the last board meeting 19:18:09 Seems while some of us were taking holiday last week several persons outside of the openSUSE community took interest in the ongoing conversations about the creation of a Foundation 19:18:47 We should point out that counter to what some are blogging this isn't a new topic that started 3 weeks ago. 19:19:09 Yes, and that's exactly the intention of the article I will be drafting up soon 19:19:19 The Foundation has been an initiative coming from the community, led by the openSUSE Board, dating back to early 2009 - perhaps earlier. There have been lots of discussion on the channels, forums, ml, etc. There was even a presentation on this topic at the fall openSUSE conference. 19:20:22 I think that it is also important for all to understand that this isn't a 're-invent' effort. 19:20:33 Yes 19:20:45 Rather we are building on our already strong basis. 19:20:58 Documents such as the guiding principles, trademark policy, strategy document, election rules, ... 19:21:10 (and credits for the initial idea and first bringing it up goes to Martin Lasarsch, a long time ago, by the way :)) 19:21:16 What I would like is for all of you to respond to that mail with your bullet points of what you think needs to be emphasized. I'll bring it all together into an article and then you all can confab about how the final write looks before we post. 19:21:46 .While some new documents will need to be created, many of the discussions aren't about creating new policies but rather about updating the current policies to incorporate what has been learned over the past years. 19:21:52 I have comments thus far from AlanClark and yaloki. rhorstkoetter henne and prusnak if you could add yours to the thread. It will help a great deal. 19:22:20 suseROCKs: it keeps slipping on my todo... :-/ 19:22:39 henne, You need to quit your dayjob. It intereres with openSUSE too much. :-) 19:22:45 suseROCKs: what was the subject again? 19:22:53 I would very much appreciate if we could do that while I'm still on the board. The Foundation is a very important matter to me since a long time :) 19:23:22 yaloki, I'd like that article posted in the next few days (or 1 week max) if possible, so you'll still be here 19:23:29 perfect :D 19:23:43 prusnak, "Foundation Public Statement" 19:24:01 ah yes, still in my todo 19:24:17 too much shit is happening lately... 19:24:32 and there was a time we complained not enough was happening :-) 19:24:43 What's that line? Feast or Famine? 19:25:01 henne: we suck at planning, putting election right after the holidays was not smart :) 19:25:21 no, no, that's alright :D 19:25:24 well. normaly we only would have had the elections... 19:25:49 I'm actually glad we have stuff on our plate. It shows we, the board, are really coming of age now 19:26:01 age or aged ;-) 19:26:20 well afaik, I'm the oldest here, so let's stick with 'age" 19:26:39 anyway 19:26:49 can we move on? :) 19:26:55 is 19:26 already... 19:26:57 alright... 19:26:59 any questions? ideas? feedback? 19:27:11 With conversations happening in diverse places, two concerns have surfaced. First that we are losing track of the information that has been discussed and second that we need to ensure that the process itself is as open and transparent as it can possibly be. To address those concerns, a couple of action items were created at the last board meeting. First, to begin a series of wiki pages on the topic and second, to create a 19:27:12 mailing list for those interested in this topic. 19:27:14 what do we need to do for the wiki documentation stuff, and do we need to prepare anything in time for the new board? 19:27:21 transition of information, etc. 19:28:13 hm 19:28:18 suseROCKs: it's a lot of content though 19:28:34 wiki documentation stuff? 19:28:34 suseROCKs: remains to be seen whether we can write all that up before the next board comes into place 19:28:47 what are you talking about? 19:28:53 I think can get it written down 19:29:07 or referenced 19:29:23 can anyone please tell me what? :) 19:29:25 henne: "First, to begin a series of wiki pages on the topic" 19:29:33 henne: foundation 19:29:36 henne: opensuse 19:29:38 henne: you remember? :D 19:29:44 who are you again? ;) 19:29:50 hehe 19:29:52 we have a foundation portal page now 19:29:55 how did that become a series of wiki pages? 19:29:56 AlanClark: you here!!! 19:29:58 ;-) 19:30:04 Hi all sorry for missing a bunch of meetings :D 19:30:11 I just had to get away from my keyboard a while... 19:30:16 been behind it a bit too much today 19:30:25 but I'm baaaack 19:30:28 * yaloki sends the dutch guy into the corner 19:30:28 :D 19:30:37 henne: why not 19:30:41 The wiki portal page is in place. Portal:Foundation 19:30:56 henne: easier to reference than emails in the archives :) 19:30:57 We also had the action item from the last meeting to create a mailing list 19:31:20 Under the portal page I placed an initial topic. Which is a description of the purpose of the Foundation. Under that topic I placed a description captured from earlier discussions. 19:31:49 yaloki: yes but a series. i thought we are talking about one page where we track things... 19:31:52 * prusnak has to go right now :-/ 19:31:57 will read backlog tmrw 19:32:05 henne, i think its pretty hard to put it all on one page 19:32:06 is this a wiki page about the status of the foundation, or a wiki page describing the foundation and how it works? 19:32:19 vuntz, it should be all of the above and then some :-) 19:32:39 status, description, bylaws, todos, etc. 19:32:52 vuntz: catching up with what we should have done much earlier already ;) 19:32:58 exactly 19:33:09 hmm, okay :-) It's good to have everything; but the "important" part for now would be tracking where we stand, I guess 19:33:22 but you know how that goes, you start with something, too early and not enough to make a big fuzz about it, and then at some point you notice damn! we should have.. 19:33:24 agreed, thats important, because I don't think we're all on the same page for example when it comes to "how it works" 19:34:12 dragotin, within our community? or what our community thinks vs what the media thinks? 19:34:22 everything else is also important, but right now, only a few people know the current status; which is why I think that's the most important point :-) 19:34:35 agreed 19:34:39 vuntz: your point 19:34:54 we should start with the current state, and then the history on how we came to that 19:35:02 agreed vuntz something we unintentionally forgot to make more visibly known and we want to rectify that now 19:35:20 okay so what do we want to have in the wiki? 19:35:32 the current draft of the bylaws? 19:35:50 or a link to the draft of the bylaws on a pad 19:35:50 yes plus more 19:36:00 what more? :) 19:36:03 for example I add to placeholders for Finance and Trademarks 19:36:04 historical data 19:36:07 as yaloki pointed out 19:36:10 suseROCKs: we had many discussions with good results already, but there is no place where we noted summaries or conclusions, so we start kind of over and over again. 19:36:17 what historical data? 19:36:33 henne, everything we've talked about since 2009. :-) 19:36:47 henne, Look at what dragotin just said. This is the problem with the perception of the foundation currently 19:36:56 dragotin: agreed 19:36:59 so links to all the board meeting minutes? 19:37:08 what else is there? 19:37:14 I don't think that level of detail would be useful to anyone :) 19:37:17 what about the discussions before the board meetings were public? 19:37:28 henne: basically what was in the presentation we gave at the conf 19:37:32 like when we were discussing using umbrella organizations like SPI. Why did we decide we didn't want to go that route? etc. 19:37:35 henne: what decisions we made and why 19:37:46 suseROCKs: those where about the bylaws and would be the draft :) 19:38:16 SPI = bylaws? 19:38:19 okay so is the presentation enough? 19:38:47 Good start 19:38:48 suseROCKs: the discussions before the conference where about the bylaws 19:38:58 suseROCKs: sorry ive read that wrong 19:39:35 okay so I have 19:39:39 * bylaws draft 19:39:49 * link to the board meeting minutes 19:40:00 * conference presentation 19:40:02 which is not enough 19:40:06 * finance 19:40:11 * trademarks 19:40:25 which I'm sure AlanClark will explain in a minute ;) 19:41:14 what else if that is not enough? 19:41:24 links to board meeting minutes 19:41:43 what about all the foundation discussions that happened before we went public with our meetings? No link to that 19:42:35 so there's a historical gap there that doesn't expalin some of the important discovery work we did before board meetings went public I think in end of 2009 or early 2010 19:42:37 how do you want to get that data? 19:42:48 and meetbot didn't become active until May 2010, right? 19:43:05 or do you want to manually collect all the nitty gritty details? 19:43:05 one of us will have to dig through old log records 19:43:11 I think that what henne listed above should be enough 19:43:19 the point isn't so much to have a public record 19:43:23 suseROCKs: have fun ;) 19:43:34 but to document the current state of things 19:43:34 i agree with yaloki 19:43:40 and why certain decisions were made 19:43:49 if people ask specific questions, then you'll be able to answer them, and add that to the wiki 19:43:49 lets not overdoo this... 19:43:51 well, isn't it about creating a good overview what happend so far rather than digging in old records? 19:44:03 dragotin: +1 19:44:18 +1 19:44:21 and than start from now filling important things into the wiki 19:44:23 if/when more questions arise, we can add a Q&A section :) 19:44:25 well obviously we would summarize what was in old records. I'm not saying we have to post logs of every meeting 19:44:32 suseROCKs: okay 19:44:44 but I'm saying if we don't even bother to provide summaries of relevant work done, we're missing historical picture. That's all 19:44:44 so finally the wiki will be a documentation of what happened on the way to the foundation 19:44:52 anything more to discuss on this topic ? 19:44:54 dragotin, yes 19:45:41 Just to turn to the trademark discussion 19:45:50 wait please 19:45:59 what is the solution now? 19:46:24 are we going to dig out old records to have the whole history present in some form 19:46:35 or are we going not to? 19:46:38 I'll do it, though I may have to ask you guys for copies of old logs if I don't have 19:47:01 sure. well just say no ;) 19:47:10 okay cool 19:47:12 I'm pretty sure me doing it was already implied. :-) 19:47:13 suseROCKs: thanks 19:47:29 suseROCKs: I haven't deleted my googlemail inbox for 4 years ... let me know if you miss something that I may have 19:48:00 #action suseROCKs dig out the records of the private board meetings and put them to the wiki 19:48:18 that action description should be more specific 19:48:34 .... dig out the records of foundation discussions.... 19:48:48 #undo 19:48:48 Removing item from minutes: 19:48:51 or when I finally get to this action item in 2014 I'll forget why :-D 19:49:17 #action suseROCKs dig out the records of the foundation discussion from the private board meetings and put them to the wiki 19:49:43 I think we're pretty much done on this topic then? 19:49:46 so on to the two points Trademarks/Finances 19:50:04 what are those supposed to be? 19:50:14 AlanClark? 19:50:15 Finance is a placeholder for now. 19:50:21 /nick rhorstkoetter theEmailArchiveMan 19:50:22 :D 19:50:32 I seriously believe we're too premature to be discussing trademarks as pertaining to the Foundation until we deal with trademark guideline revisions on the general 19:50:34 :-D 19:50:37 just so that we have a place to talk about budgets in the future 19:50:53 okay 19:50:53 suseROCKS is right 19:51:12 that's why the wiki now points to the current discussions 19:52:04 so nothing else onthe topic of Foundations for now, right? 19:52:12 that's it 19:52:13 s/foundations/foundation/ 19:52:16 mailing list? 19:52:17 nope 19:52:22 we didnt announce all this 19:52:44 oh yeah ML... too many people asking if its valid yet (and it isn't) 19:52:57 it works since a couple of days 19:53:03 opensuse-foundation@opensuse.org 19:53:09 but still we need to announce it 19:53:14 thanks for letting us know :-) 19:53:16 I'll add that to the page 19:53:36 and post an ml 19:53:56 post an ml? 19:54:02 henne, Will you take care of announcing it? wherever it should be? 19:54:23 its not about announcing the mailinglist peepz 19:54:51 henne, Over the holidays people kept asking if the list was active yet cuz we explicity said in the last meeting that it would be created and told them what the name would be 19:54:53 its about announcing that everybody is invited now to start working on the foundation 19:55:18 so there's folks out there, including myself, who kept trying to subscribe every few days just to see if it works. 19:55:18 we need to draw in people 19:55:34 so we need to make a nice announcement 19:55:38 henne: ah, good, thanks for the ML 19:56:45 you don't draw people into creating a lively foundation with us 19:56:52 if you just throw a mailinglist at them :) 19:56:57 sure 19:57:06 you were missing the point 19:57:12 I won't take that one, I have enough AIs on the plate already :) 19:57:21 people were trying to get into the ML and were stymied. We need to let them know... okay you can come in now! :-) 19:57:56 but in any case, that's now pretty much taken cae of. Let's move on 19:58:30 lets move on to what? 19:58:35 a new topic 19:59:03 so we don't write an announcement about this process? 19:59:11 i don't get you 19:59:14 sorry 19:59:43 just give the AI to someone :-) 19:59:49 you already have an idea about how this should be done. Take the AI dude! 20:00:07 I can take the AI 20:00:13 hmm, a bit disappointing that in four weeks nothing concrete happened on this important topic, if I am allowed to say that 20:00:31 dragotin, I agree. We should ban holidays :-) 20:00:41 well, yes, holidays granted of course 20:00:47 but still. 20:02:35 i had exactly 5 days on deck 20:02:55 so im actually quite surprised that i managed to get a list up :) 20:03:01 alright 20:03:15 well dragotin - the wiki's now out there - The description of the Foundation is important. Don't complain - contribute 20:03:19 please, that was not to blame somebody 20:03:31 dragotin: yeah yeah lol 20:03:35 AlanClark: good point :) 20:03:46 #action AlanClark write an announcement about the new process of creating the foundation. where the latest information is and how you can contribute 20:03:49 henne: opensuse-fondation+subscribe@opensuse.org no alias known 20:03:50 * dragotin shuts up 20:04:02 tigerfoot: type 20:04:04 tigerfoot: foundation 20:04:08 tigerfoot: typo 20:04:14 tigerfoot, try opensuse-foundation :-D 20:04:34 * tigerfoot sorry, french wine, french word, switch my brain ... 20:04:58 can i have some? 20:05:03 moving along? 20:05:07 okay anything else on the topic of foundation? 20:05:08 yes please :> 20:05:44 next topic 20:06:03 well... what's going to happen after the announcement to tell people come and help? 20:06:27 I guess that discussions should and will happen on the list 20:06:43 and if meetings happen on IRC, we need logs and/or a summary to be sent there as well 20:06:57 vuntz: what do you propose? 20:06:59 :) 20:07:06 (also to free -project@ from huge threads on the topic :)) 20:07:20 henne: just have a clear list of topics that should be discussed as next steps on opensuse-foundation 20:07:45 like "review draft of by-laws" 20:08:00 vuntz: good point - I'll put that as an email on the list 20:08:01 and... I'm not sure what else needs to be discussed :-) 20:08:21 AlanClark: put that into the announcement 20:08:25 that was the idea of the topics list on the portal page 20:08:36 AlanClark: people tend to be more interested in specifics :) 20:08:49 ok 20:09:04 vuntz, can't those nitty gritty things be discussed on the foundation ML and make sure everyone is on the same page going forth? We could spend endless hours talking all the nitty gritties right here and now, but.... 20:09:28 please don't! hehe 20:09:33 cmon, let's move on :) 20:09:39 exactly! 20:09:47 we're over an hour already on the same topic 20:09:57 vuntz: not that your comments aren't valuable, though, don't get me wrong :) 20:10:02 well this is the most important topic isnt it? 20:10:14 people are comming here just because of this 20:10:19 so please be patient 20:10:25 we can skip other topics as needed 20:11:15 I don't agree with that statement but... we are being rather slower than normal today 20:11:39 henne: yes, of course, but I think that we have one or more steps ahead of us on the matter now 20:11:43 boo f***** woo ;) 20:11:49 the usual patented Henne-One-Two Pace is missing today :-D 20:11:58 so let's do that first and then more stuff can be discussed on the foundation list 20:12:14 i just have one question 20:12:23 where are we going to discuss this announcement? 20:12:39 or arent we going to discuss this? :) 20:12:47 and it would be more practical to have the wiki page with the current state of things first 20:12:54 before the announcement I mean 20:13:06 avoids discussing stuff that'll be on that page anyway 20:13:10 henne, we could include it in the upcoming Foundation article at the end "If you want to know more and get involved... go here" 20:13:35 okay, good (will take a few more days for the announcement but it's really more practical) 20:13:51 suseROCKs: for a marketing guy you really underestimate the impact of this announcement :) 20:14:00 there is already interest in our community 20:14:07 henne, no 20:14:07 and in the wider FOSS community 20:14:23 henne: yes, but a few days won't make much of a difference ;) 20:14:29 your question was where to announce and I gave one suggestion as a place to announce it 20:14:31 i'm saying we need to make a big splash so people get interested in doing this foundation with us 20:14:37 another place is on the project ML 20:14:42 and the forums, etc etc etc 20:14:46 sure 20:14:52 but we don't have to spend endless hours discussing where to announce it 20:15:01 its common sense 20:15:04 who discusses where to announce it? 20:15:10 you! 20:15:17 so let's channel this through the marketing team and let them help with the logistics and content of the announcment 20:15:33 i don't 20:15:45 i want to hash out what we want to announce 20:15:55 so people get actually interested 20:16:02 vuntz made one proposal 20:16:06 you want to announce the wiki and the ML what else are we going to announce? 20:16:45 suseROCKs: how people can help, concretely 20:17:10 and with what 20:17:26 and preferably what skills they need 20:17:45 or what skills we are specifically looking for 20:18:02 "have an opinion and be capable of constructive criticism" ;) 20:18:04 * tigerfoot able to cry cut the tree in the forest .:-) 20:18:22 Timber? 20:18:26 * tigerfoot also can cut a tree, but need a good reason for that 20:18:43 henne in your spare time >>> http://lists.opensuse.org/ is missing opensuse-foundation@opensuse.org JFYI 20:18:55 * mrdocs ducks and runs 20:19:01 mrdocs: thanks 20:19:01 seems to be a lot of jumping ahead here... Right now we have focus on getting the wiki pages populated with what we have to date so far... 20:19:05 * rhorstkoetter cut a tree once and almost lost his thumb while doing so :) 20:19:14 once we have all that data together, we'll have a better picture of what we need and thus what skills we're looking for 20:19:26 rhorstkoetter, the tree bit back? 20:19:42 suseROCKs: a tree 20:19:44 okay so we're putting off the announcement. fine with me 20:19:49 jeez. was that so hard? 20:19:52 no 20:19:59 we can still let people know the resources exist (ML and wiki) 20:20:16 and as people gather around (since you already said there's high interest) we'll know who's actually around that wants to contribute 20:20:34 suseROCKs: chestnut iirc 20:21:00 i'm sorry i disagree but im too tired to beat some sense into you :) youre the marketing guy... 20:21:09 next topic then 20:21:47 and all I'm saying is that as the "marketing guy" you're putting the cart before the horse is all. 20:21:55 okay 20:21:55 so yes next topic 20:22:00 #topic Membership Approval Team 20:22:59 so as I saw in the original of this topic, it specifically pertains to removing non-participating team members? 20:23:11 i think prusnak requested that we remove the people in the team that haver never voted until now 20:23:26 +1 20:23:27 me, me, me, please remove me! 20:23:32 i think that is a very good idea 20:23:34 I think the concept makes sense... 20:23:38 vuntz: have you voted? 20:23:53 henne: I guess I voted a few times, but really, I'm not active enough 20:23:54 But do we require that level of overview? Or shouldn't we let the team's leadership take care of such internal matters? 20:24:06 I'm sure there could be other people who'd be much more useful than me 20:24:19 vuntz: tough luck. youre staying in the slavery ;) 20:24:20 suseROCKs: not sure anyone on the team feels like being the lead on it 20:24:21 suseROCKs: I'd vote for suseROCKs' second option 20:24:36 yaloki, then maybe we should encourage leadership in there 20:24:50 that would be even better 20:24:53 huh? 20:25:03 why is that a matter of leadership? 20:25:06 if people think its us who decides who stays or goes, then it seems to me the very notion of leadership didn't come into anyone's head 20:25:27 henne, its a matter of membership. i don't want to see the board become responsible for monitoring every ssingle person. 20:25:29 suseROCKs: although arguably, a team that decides on its own who should be removed.. 20:25:30 we initiated this team and "outsourced" this task to them 20:25:41 We outsourced. We're supposed to entrust the outsource to handle themselves until they prove otherwise 20:25:41 yes. lets just say that to them 20:26:09 *next* 20:26:12 we absolutely trus the membership approval team to do the right thing 20:26:16