18:02:40 <henne> #startmeeting 18:02:40 <bugbot> Meeting started Wed Sep 22 18:02:40 2010 UTC. The chair is henne. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:02:40 <bugbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:02:47 <michl> henne: what about rhorstkoetter ? 18:02:53 <henne> #meetintopic openSUSE Board Meeting 18:02:59 <henne> #meetingtopic openSUSE Board Meeting 18:03:01 * prusnak reporting for duty 18:03:12 <henne> #chair michl prusnak suseROCKs yaloki 18:03:12 <bugbot> Current chairs: henne michl prusnak suseROCKs yaloki 18:03:23 <henne> michl: did you see him in the last couple of weeks? 18:03:31 <michl> not in person 18:03:41 <michl> but once in a while on skype 18:03:49 <henne> i don't see him around anymore 18:04:44 <michl> henne: I'll give him a call like tomorrow to ask what's going on 18:05:34 <henne> please do 18:05:37 <suseROCKs> Good Moin all! 18:06:35 <suseROCKs> michl skypes? I better put my clothes back on! 18:07:48 <suseROCKs> So, shall we actually have a meeting now? 18:08:12 <suseROCKs> We're all good looking people, but just standing around looking good won't achieve anything. 18:09:37 <henne> just clearing the agenda 18:09:59 <henne> so lets go. the topic of this meeting are: 18:10:00 <henne> 1. openSUSE Foundation 18:10:00 <henne> 2. Where do we need to improve ? 18:10:00 <henne> 3. Questions & Answers 18:10:12 <suseROCKs> That's too many topics :-) 18:10:23 <henne> anything additional? 18:11:05 <suseROCKs> perhaps we should discuss what we want to do on our F2F meeting 18:12:04 <henne> yes please 18:12:17 <henne> 4. Agenda for the F2F meeting 18:12:20 <henne> more? 18:12:24 <michl> no 18:12:24 <suseROCKs> I just sent a post to #suse channel inviting folks to observe this meeting. So please everyone... no nose-picking in front of our valued guests. 18:12:56 <henne> #topic openSUSE Foundation 18:13:37 <suseROCKs> michl, What's your feeling, without making an official statement on the matter, about our chances of moving ahead with Plan A? 18:13:46 <henne> did everyone review the 400000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 pages document michl sent around? 18:13:57 <michl> on the openSUSE foundation I sent you stuff around 18:14:08 <suseROCKs> henne, Not yet :-) 18:14:09 <michl> hint: the short one is good to go 18:14:39 <michl> so Jos, Alan, aj and myself have the honour to present this in Markus Rex staff meeting this Friday 18:15:23 <michl> tasks of the foundation is just "book keeping" = collecting and spreading donation 18:15:40 <michl> and give legal support to the project if necessary 18:15:52 <henne> legal support? 18:15:54 <suseROCKs> define legal support? 18:15:56 <michl> technical decisions won't be a duty of the foundation 18:16:12 <suseROCKs> who will retain technical decisions? 18:16:26 <henne> technical decisions? 18:16:37 <michl> suseROCKs: technical decisions stay as of today 18:16:49 <michl> maintainer, release manager 18:16:54 <suseROCKs> That actually brings up an interesting aspect to question. 18:17:17 <suseROCKs> I'm not sure if its going to tear into this discusssion though. It could get a bit sensitive to bring up 18:17:45 <suseROCKs> but first, the question of legal support. How does the Foundation, in the capacity you just describe, become the legal support of the Project? 18:18:01 <henne> and what means legal support? 18:18:35 <prusnak> there is nothing such thing as a legal support 18:18:44 <prusnak> we need an entity where people can donate their resources 18:18:53 <prusnak> (be them financial or not) 18:19:03 <michl> if someone comes around the corner and claims hey, your violating my IP 18:19:09 <suseROCKs> prusnak, I think the "legal support" alludes to providing legal advice to questions that arise from the Project. 18:19:14 <prusnak> and we don't want this to be novell, because a) it has not a very good reputation in the public 18:19:32 <prusnak> b) some things are not possible if the second party is a company not NPF 18:19:49 <prusnak> that's my POV 18:20:29 <suseROCKs> I personally don't see how the Foundation can provide legal support, and would consider Novell to be a donor of legal support to the Project. 18:20:52 <michl> suseROCKs: unfortunately I think you're right 18:21:13 <michl> as from a code perspectice kind of anything is in openSUSE is in one or the other way in a Novell product 18:21:16 <suseROCKs> at some point in the future when we really bring in money and support we'll either pay it ourselves and/or get pro bono services 18:21:17 <michl> so they'd take care 18:21:44 <henne> so whats this task about then? 18:22:00 <henne> i don't get it 18:22:58 <michl> its on trademarks 18:23:16 <suseROCKs> so legal support = we have the authority to manage the trademarks 18:23:38 <michl> the Foundation will sign a contract with Novell on trademarks 18:23:45 <suseROCKs> and defer to Novell as the donor of legal services when a legal question about the trademarks arises. 18:23:55 <michl> so anyone asking today the Board for tm usage will then go to the Foundation 18:24:13 <suseROCKs> ok that makes more sense 18:24:38 <henne> yes 18:24:41 <gnokii_> michl: so Novell owns the tm furthermore 18:25:07 <prusnak> if novell will be willing to gave the rights to the foundation 18:25:10 <michl> gnokii_: if they don't decide to make a gift to the foundation yes 18:25:42 <suseROCKs> gnokii_, It would be as it currently exists... Novell owns, but openSUSE is the exclusive manager of it. 18:26:08 <michl> THE duty of the foundation would be collecting and spreading donations 18:26:19 <michl> in other words supporting the openSUSE project 18:26:28 <michl> travel, hardware, services etc 18:26:53 <suseROCKs> I have to bring up another aspect, since technically michl already brought it up. I think it bears at least some discussion.... 18:27:01 <gnokii_> michl: contains the contract a paragraph what would be with the tm when novell is not anymore the owner of it? 18:27:33 <michl> gnokii_: as the contract isn't yet written there is nothing in 18:27:56 <suseROCKs> gnokii_, Those are minute details that haven't been worked on yet. First step is to sell Novell to support our concept of Foundation. Then next step is legal wording mumbo-jumbo 18:28:04 <michl> but those "what would happen if" sentences is kind of core of any lawyers 18:28:04 <gnokii_> so when Novell sells SUSE we have on the end no guarantee of openSUSE or? 18:28:34 <dev001> i'm not on the board, obviously, but i'll just inject -- doesn't this line of inquiry depend in _large_ part on who ends up buying/owning Novell? 18:28:38 <michl> gnokii_: we don't even have guarantee the there will be sunrise tomorrow 18:28:39 <dev001> ah ... 18:28:49 <prusnak> dev001: gnokii_: good points 18:29:13 <prusnak> i am afraid all this discussion with novell can go down the drain and we'll have to talk with the new "owners" 18:29:23 <michl> prusnak: right 18:29:25 <henne> and please understand there will be no contract :) 18:29:35 <prusnak> but looking from the brighter side the new talks might be easier than the ones with novell :) 18:29:43 <suseROCKs> dev001, Maybe yes, maybe no. But we can't just sit around and wait. We're going forth and whatever responses we get, we'll react accordingly. We are already devising a plan B in case we don't get a support and do not want to delay the creation of such a Foundation. 18:30:17 <henne> why would the new "owners" employ someone else than markus and why would the new owners have a different stance on something that is already decided? 18:30:19 <prusnak> btw, I talked with Fedora guys last weekend and they HAVE a foundation! 18:30:27 <suseROCKs> prusnak, I agree on "possible improvement." If there is indeed a strategic partner, then surely they recognize the value of openSUSE. 18:30:29 <dev001> it's also entirely possible, if not likely, that the @novell/@suse team members may well -- change. 18:30:37 <prusnak> they decided to cancel US one, but they still have Fedora EMEA foundation 18:30:41 <dev001> henne: cref: oracle & opensolaris 18:30:45 <prusnak> for organizing events in europe and so on ... 18:30:56 <gnokii_> prusnak: yes but they have not such a problem with TM because fedora != RedHat 18:31:11 <prusnak> so the argument "why we need foundation if redhat does not" is in fact not valid 18:31:13 <henne> dev001: if we present on friday to markus and we decide to go forward its a done deal 18:31:16 <suseROCKs> but let's not bog ourselves down on who's buying what, and what the contract specificity says. The important thing right now is that we SELL the idea of a Foundation. We need to get past that first hurdle before we do anything else 18:31:23 <gnokii_> prusnak about EMEA foundation thats right now in discussion to kill it 18:31:36 <dev001> suseROCKs: nobody's suggested sitting around and waiting. simply, being rational about the fact that a sale/change of ownership is imminent. as in very soon. 18:31:56 <henne> can please keep this out of this discussion? 18:32:07 <henne> who cares really? 18:32:13 <suseROCKs> dev001, While many of us believe the news is true, it is still only officially a rumor with n o official news validating it. 18:32:16 <prusnak> henne: you scared him :) 18:32:21 <henne> we have a meeting with people on friday 18:32:23 <suseROCKs> henne, Can we get this topic back on topic please? 18:32:27 <henne> people that will be there on saturday 18:32:36 <henne> so lets prepare for this 18:32:43 <henne> keep calm, carry on :) 18:32:59 * suseROCKs sings "Carry on my Wayard Son" 18:33:29 <henne> so are we ready to present on friday? 18:33:43 <suseROCKs> well I still think we need to discuss my sub-topic on this matter 18:33:53 <suseROCKs> at least put it on the table to discuss whether its something valid or not.... 18:33:57 * michl and Jos will prepare tomorrow 18:34:09 <suseROCKs> Michl mentioned that tech decisions still won't be under the domain of the Foundation. 18:34:15 <michl> I'd be glad to receive some nasty questions from you guys 18:34:23 <henne> suseROCKs: which one? 18:34:27 <henne> k 18:34:30 <michl> for preperation purpose 18:34:40 <suseROCKs> and this comes to mind something I've been thinking about in last two weeks ever since I saw a response from GP on one of the threads 18:34:58 <suseROCKs> in his thread, he stated that openSUSE is an independent project and not owned by Novell. 18:35:07 <prusnak> btw, i'm getting 504s on piratepad :-/ 18:35:16 <suseROCKs> Now I happen to agree there's a lot of FUD about just how much Novell controls the Project, henne. You know that. 18:35:22 <michl> prusnak: I can send you the document 18:35:58 <suseROCKs> But, how will we truly get support for a Foundation if its just a "put our hands out and beg for money" entity than a driver of the project if there's still some control by Novell? 18:35:59 <henne> suseROCKs: spit it out 18:36:16 <suseROCKs> henne, I have very long spittle... live with it. :-) 18:37:15 <henne> what is a driver of the project? 18:37:30 <suseROCKs> at the reins 18:37:33 <suseROCKs> decision maker 18:37:39 <suseROCKs> project shaper 18:37:42 <henne> whihc decision? 18:37:43 <suseROCKs> whatever you wanna call it 18:37:46 <michl> pretty much drive -if not all - for the project comes from the people doing the work 18:38:00 <henne> all of the drive 18:38:01 <suseROCKs> michl, You mentioned "technical decision" 18:38:15 <henne> suseROCKs: don't get me wrong i want to know. but please be specific 18:38:37 <suseROCKs> ok let's take last year's Default Debate as an example. This was a decision made by Novell 18:38:39 <michl> suseROCKs: how decides today which version of package or if we ship btrfs ? 18:39:01 <henne> suseROCKs: no it was michls decision 18:39:11 <michl> henne: right 18:39:21 <suseROCKs> henne, Check michl's employment :-) 18:39:29 <gnokii_> michl: its ok would there be a Technical Steering Commission liek on fedora? 18:39:41 <henne> suseROCKs: so? 18:39:55 <michl> suseROCKs: believe it or not - there were no pressure or anyhing 18:40:08 <henne> and no support ;) 18:40:12 <michl> and please remember Novell's default desktop still is GNOME 18:40:30 <suseROCKs> gnokii_, has the right idea here 18:40:33 <michl> gnokii_: this is valid point 18:40:44 * michl just had a conversation today with aj about that 18:40:58 <henne> and nobody has a problem with this 18:41:01 <suseROCKs> decisions are still viewed as being made by Novell. And the question is who is the entity in power of decisions? Who makes or breaks? Who does the tie-breaking? 18:41:05 <henne> if we want to do that, we do that 18:41:16 <michl> as how those technical decisions are taken is not very clear from an outside perspecive 18:41:21 <henne> suseROCKs: but this is the thing: viewed. 18:41:26 <suseROCKs> thank you michl 18:41:29 <henne> suseROCKs: we are talking abour: made 18:41:59 <suseROCKs> henne, that's the point... perception. How can we be a successful foundation raising money if we're saying "We here to take your money but we still don't get to make technical decisions" 18:41:59 <suseROCKs> ? 18:42:00 <henne> so yes we can change the way we decide the default desktop to whatever we want 18:42:18 <henne> roll a dice 18:42:25 <henne> throw a dart 18:42:28 <henne> you name it 18:42:51 <henne> suseROCKs: this is a question of governance. not of foundation 18:43:23 <suseROCKs> A foundation can be responsible for governance 18:43:37 <henne> sure. so can be your mom :) 18:43:40 <suseROCKs> and if we're going to end up with two boards, one for governance and one for fundraising, we're gonna have confusion galore 18:44:19 <henne> thats another issue isnt it? 18:44:26 <henne> one that need resolving 18:44:42 <gnokii_> mmh the fpl and his board makes no technical decisions also so whats ur problem with that? 18:44:47 <suseROCKs> well it can be another issue or it can be the same issue. Should or shouldn't the Foundation have governance role? 18:44:47 <henne> we agreed on the purpose of the foundation a long time ago right? 18:44:58 <henne> so no it sholdnt 18:46:38 <suseROCKs> well I think we should just agree to disagree on this particular matter. 18:46:58 <henne> so you don't agree anymore on the purpose of the foundation? 18:47:15 <henne> then we can begin a square one 18:47:18 <henne> at* 18:47:43 <suseROCKs> henne, my interpretation of what we had always talked about for the past two years is that the foundation would be a fundraising arm as well as an official establishment of the Project as independent both perceptually and reality. 18:47:59 <suseROCKs> somehow, that second part seems to have gotten lost over time. 18:48:37 <gnokii_> suseROCKs: u have enough knowledge u an engeneer to make technical decissions? 18:48:38 <henne> to my knowledge this is the first time you bring this up 18:48:46 <prusnak> henne: +1 18:48:56 <prusnak> it will be the official establishment of the project 18:49:08 <prusnak> but the technical decisions should be done be working groups 18:49:14 <suseROCKs> prusnak, you just said it" Official establishment of the project" 18:49:30 <prusnak> so if there is a decision about OBS let OBS people decide 18:49:38 <prusnak> same for factory, etc. 18:50:11 <suseROCKs> prusnak, I'm not saying we make every decision. But there still has to be someone who can make final decisions when agreements can't be achieved and needs someone to mediate 18:50:14 <prusnak> we would love to have mixed groups, but unfortunately not a lot of people are interested, so it seems that novell is controlling the project 18:50:18 <suseROCKs> who's the mediator? 18:50:54 <suseROCKs> prusnak, I would reverse that. People see it as novell controlling 9which I don't agree with that perception) and thus become uninterested 18:51:06 <suseROCKs> We need a way to truly instill the feeling of empowerment. 18:51:11 <prusnak> suseROCKs: yes, it is a closedd circle 18:51:11 <henne> suseROCKs: for now its for the distribution coolo and michl 18:51:18 <henne> for the buildservice adrian and mls 18:51:26 <henne> for everything else we 18:51:46 <prusnak> if the agreement could not be found within a group I don't thinnk that board/foundation should decide 18:51:57 <prusnak> it should go back to the group for another round 18:52:14 <michl> prusnak: or a technical steering body 18:52:31 <suseROCKs> prusnak, ok take the forums battle that occured last year. They asked the Board to intervene and fix things. We now lose that role as Board? 18:53:06 <michl> suseROCKs: would that be a technical decision ? 18:53:07 <prusnak> how exactly did the board fix that? 18:53:10 <henne> so the question is. what happens to this board 18:53:18 <suseROCKs> yes henne 18:53:24 <michl> maybe a seperation like follows: 18:53:34 <michl> Foundation takes care of money 18:53:39 <suseROCKs> michl, Okay, the decision about default. Should that have been made by one person or should that have been made by the board? 18:53:42 <michl> Board takes care of Community 18:53:56 <michl> Steering Commitee takes care of technical decisions 18:54:46 <suseROCKs> and I'm not trying to single you out, Michl, but I think its relevant to this discussion. 18:54:50 <henne> i think everyone except me wants to merge the foundation board with this one 18:55:04 <henne> at least that was you guys said in the past 18:55:13 <suseROCKs> henne, yes 18:55:16 <prusnak> michl: i would merge foundation+board points into one 18:55:28 <prusnak> and have technical steer as the second entity 18:55:39 <suseROCKs> I'll endorse that idea 18:55:52 <suseROCKs> It will give perception that the community is empowered to drive technical aspects of the Project 18:56:05 <henne> an please not we have a "Steering Commitee" right now and we can transform it to whatever we want 18:56:09 <suseROCKs> Didn't we have a plan for such a steering committee a while back? 18:56:21 <henne> no one except us cares 18:56:29 <suseROCKs> who is "us"? 18:56:49 <henne> opensuse of course 18:57:13 <suseROCKs> please fix your spellchecker... its openSUSE :-) 18:58:13 <henne> so can we continue? 18:58:16 <suseROCKs> so Foundation Board (money+commuity) and Technical Entity. That sounds like a very logical solution 18:58:38 <prusnak> we can bootstrap technical entity later 18:58:44 <prusnak> let's focus on foundation right now 18:58:46 <gnokii_> prusnak: +1 18:58:56 <prusnak> it's much harder then technical stuff 19:00:10 <henne> so is there anything missing for friday? 19:00:29 <suseROCKs> what dress code will they follow? :-) 19:00:55 <prusnak> i guess not, i like the way it is 19:01:15 <henne> michl: you will present this? 19:01:25 <michl> Jos and myself, yes 19:02:01 <henne> i feel a bit uncomfortable with this 19:02:11 <suseROCKs> why? 19:02:18 <henne> as you are the only person who every took part in these discussions 19:02:25 <henne> ever* 19:02:44 <henne> neither Jos nor Alan nor Aj 19:02:56 <suseROCKs> well henne It would be *nice* if a non-Novell rep was also present, but we need a Foundation first in order to pay for non-Novell rep to show up :-) 19:03:23 <henne> suseROCKs: i'm pretty sure its a phonecall :) 19:03:25 <suseROCKs> I would include Alan as having been following this all along. I'm confident of that. 19:03:46 <henne> suseROCKs: and i don't mean non-novell but board 19:03:51 <henne> but okay 19:04:01 <suseROCKs> henne, But I do agree with the basis of your statement 19:04:19 <suseROCKs> it has the air of "behind closed doors" but I'm not sure how we can get around that. 19:04:21 <prusnak> henne: do you want to include pascal in the talk? 19:04:39 <prusnak> or yourself? 19:04:46 <prusnak> just tell us 19:04:54 <suseROCKs> yaloki, is having a hard time finding time to get away from work these days for such events. 19:04:59 <henne> for the future i would like the opensuse board to present it's doings 19:05:07 <henne> just the opensuse board 19:05:15 <suseROCKs> henne, Ok how about this.... 19:05:18 <henne> and people they choose of course 19:05:35 <suseROCKs> we're all going to be together on Monday before the board. Could we request that Markus join us for such a discussion then? 19:06:02 <michl> suseROCKs: we can request everything 19:06:02 <henne> no. lets just make sure this happens in the future 19:06:06 <suseROCKs> s/before the board/before the conf/ 19:06:06 <henne> and keep friday as it is 19:06:24 <henne> if we have a slot we should use it 19:06:30 <michl> I'm fine with let the Board present such stuff in the future 19:06:57 <gnokii_> for present? Or for agree it? 19:07:11 <suseROCKs> I would still like to have guests such as Markus present even if the presentation happens this Friday. But we'll discuss in that topic. 19:07:34 <henne> gnokii_: sorry? 19:07:51 <suseROCKs> gnokii_, There's nothing to agree on yet. It is just a selling of the idea event. 19:08:17 <gnokii_> so see for only a presentation isnt really the whole board needed 19:08:30 <suseROCKs> It's a "Hey, will you join us in principle towards creating the foundation?" And if yes, then we start working on details to agree on, and if not, then we do it ourselves in Plan B 19:08:56 <suseROCKs> gnokii_, henne wasn't saying whole board needed. He's saying he wants better representation by the board at such discussions 19:09:38 <gnokii_> mmh I always thaught michl is the chair 19:10:11 <michl> gnokii_: what does this mean ? 19:10:26 <gnokii_> that means the board is present there 19:10:28 <suseROCKs> chair != speak for everyone 19:10:57 <henne> and sorry but board != Jos & AJ 19:10:59 <gnokii_> suseROCKs: present a thing means not there is a discussion 19:11:27 <suseROCKs> a presentation does lead to discussion. There's always a q&a. He's not going to show a slide and then walk out of the room. 19:11:57 <henne> you two don't have to interpret what i might mean 19:12:02 <henne> i'm right here. ask me ;) 19:12:51 <prusnak> i asked 19:12:52 <henne> i mean: the people of opensuse vote on their representatives and these representatives then discuss in countless hours the foundation 19:13:15 <suseROCKs> brb doorbell 19:13:19 <prusnak> and got moreorless the answer, there is no need to reinterpret what's been said 19:13:46 <henne> sure 19:14:07 <prusnak> let's use this slot we've been given 19:14:07 <henne> so let's please make sure that we do a better job next time 19:14:13 <henne> yes 19:14:19 <henne> anything else on the foundation? 19:14:28 <prusnak> and we can try to arrange another meeting w/ marcus before the conference 19:14:38 <michl> prusnak: right 19:14:41 <henne> that is actually the next topic 19:14:55 <prusnak> henne: I prepared a nice transition for you :) 19:15:08 <henne> #topic Agenda for our pre-conf face to face meeting 19:15:24 <henne> prusnak: i always say you should be on TV 19:15:43 <henne> #undo 19:15:43 <bugbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x1f3f910> 19:15:50 <henne> we forgot something 19:16:10 <henne> i had the AI to investigate the creation of an e.V. 19:16:57 <henne> i did so and it's quiet easy 19:17:34 <henne> and there is no money needed 19:17:46 <prusnak> \o/ 19:17:47 <henne> except some fees for the vereinsregister 19:18:01 <michl> henne: exactly 19:18:09 <gnokii_> it needs only 7 ppl 19:18:15 <henne> which means (tada) club register 19:18:27 <michl> we're talking of kind of 200 € or even less afaik 19:19:08 <gnokii_> michl: u havent to register the harder thing is an other 19:20:05 <henne> we talk about 150 for the notary to notarize the by-laws 19:20:52 <henne> and around 20€ for the fees to get it into the register 19:21:04 <michl> henne: and someone needs to write the bylaws 19:21:20 <henne> michl: the internet already has 19:21:33 <michl> and as we're not talking about the average hobbiest foundation I'd say the bylaws need some love from an expert 19:21:34 <henne> there are countless templates 19:21:35 <suseROCKs> there's plenty of bylaws templates out there 19:21:54 <michl> henne: templates on sport and beekeeping foundations? 19:22:09 <michl> or templates of operating sytems, free software foundations ? 19:22:25 <suseROCKs> we look to other FOSS bylaws and use them as templates :-) 19:22:46 <prusnak> there is at least KDE, e.V. 19:23:04 <suseROCKs> There ya go 19:23:05 <prusnak> where can we take inspiration from 19:23:10 <gnokii_> michl: that doesnt matter because u have only to make sure it has an worth for the community ands open for everyone 19:23:25 <henne> michl: you only have to put in a objective of the club and then describe some means 19:23:46 <henne> there is no such thing as FOSS bylaws or whatever neccesarry 19:24:18 <henne> michl: and there is no difference to a hobbiest foundation 19:24:23 <suseROCKs> In any case, bylaws are not that complex to deal with. I've dealt with countless over the years 19:24:42 <suseROCKs> hobbyist 19:25:09 <henne> as i said. for a german e.v. its a two page document, most of it formalities 19:26:05 <henne> the rest is up to the member assembly 19:26:23 <suseROCKs> hardly an issue to discuss the nuts and bolts of it right now 19:26:40 <henne> i had the AI to investigate :) 19:27:11 <suseROCKs> and you did. and you gave us all the adequate information we need right now. 19:27:17 <henne> yes 19:27:25 <prusnak> *applause* 19:27:28 <suseROCKs> Bravo henne 19:27:39 <henne> great 19:27:45 <henne> then lets go on 19:27:58 <henne> #topic Agenda for our pre-conf face to face meeting 19:28:38 <suseROCKs> well we have the whole day slated for ourselves on Monday.... 19:28:46 <suseROCKs> and some of that time should be spent amongst ourselves 19:28:59 <suseROCKs> But we should also have slots to invite Jos 19:29:22 <suseROCKs> and I think another slot to invite Folks in NUE such as Markus and GP and AJ 19:29:28 <prusnak> tuesday is also pre-conf right? 19:29:42 <suseROCKs> prusnak, yes, but that's reserved for some of us for the strategy discussion 19:29:58 <suseROCKs> we'll be finalizing and getting it ready for presenatation at the conf 19:30:03 <prusnak> ah, okay 19:30:21 <michl> didn't yaloki say he's not available those days? or even henne ? 19:30:23 <prusnak> i guess me with henne will do boosting stuff then 19:30:40 <henne> prusnak: exactly :) 19:30:51 <suseROCKs> he's going to be there, michl he's arriving Sunday 19:31:11 <michl> so henne and prusnak doing boosting stuff on Tuesday, right ? 19:31:23 <henne> yehes 19:31:55 <suseROCKs> and you all are available on Monday for Board? 19:32:17 <henne> i am 19:32:25 <prusnak> i will arrive on monday around noon i guess 19:32:26 <suseROCKs> prusnak? 19:32:42 <suseROCKs> can't make it sun night? 19:32:51 <prusnak> we'll have to sort out the details with michal 19:33:09 <prusnak> suseROCKs: i can, but i haven't thought about it yet 19:33:20 <prusnak> henne: do you think it would be beneficial to arrive on sunday? 19:33:38 <michl> prusnak: of course 19:33:40 <prusnak> and the second question to arrive together with michal on sunday? 19:33:44 <suseROCKs> I'd really like it if our Monday is more relaxed than last time. Not rushed with a half day but that we can easily flow through a day 19:33:45 <michl> Sunday evenings in NUE are famours 19:33:49 <michl> sorry famous 19:33:57 <suseROCKs> who's Michal? 19:34:11 <henne> prusnak: yes i think so. shouldnt be a problem 19:34:12 <suseROCKs> What's famous, michl? 19:34:14 <michl> suseROCKs: he's from VMware 19:34:16 <prusnak> suseROCKs: the other booster i will be travelling with i guess 19:34:42 <henne> prusnak: please aim for sunday so we have more time on monday 19:34:52 <prusnak> henne: okay, will talk with klaas and michal 19:34:57 <suseROCKs> ok 19:35:05 <suseROCKs> so as I was saying... 19:35:10 <suseROCKs> one slot for Jos.... 19:35:24 <suseROCKs> one slot for the other three I mentioned? Or a slot for each? I think all in one slot would be better 19:35:27 <henne> for what? 19:36:10 <henne> a agenda is something else than an appointment ;) 19:36:30 <suseROCKs> well we should have a formal introduction with Jos 19:36:38 <henne> huh? 19:36:44 <suseROCKs> formal as in face to face 19:37:22 <henne> yes but please lets have a agenda consisting of topics 19:37:30 <prusnak> suseROCKs: don't worry you'll meet him 19:37:35 <henne> and then we can think about who to invite to talk about that 19:37:41 <suseROCKs> and the slot with Jos should be to hear what he's up to, what he would like to see from us and vice versa 19:38:20 <henne> i would like to talk about his role 19:38:31 <henne> with him 19:38:46 <suseROCKs> yes 19:38:52 <henne> and governance 19:39:05 <suseROCKs> with him or as our own topic? 19:39:17 <henne> so how about the topic of governance for the morning 19:39:39 <henne> and the topic of foundation for the afternoon 19:39:48 <henne> topped by a dinner or whatever :) 19:40:19 <suseROCKs> henne, that sounds like a pretty good plan 19:40:35 <henne> and keep and hour in the morning just for ourselves 19:41:05 <henne> 10am - 11am Board meet and greet 19:41:23 <henne> 11am - 13am Governance 19:41:30 <henne> 13am. cool 19:41:40 <henne> 13 - 14 lunch 19:41:41 <prusnak> :) 19:41:51 <henne> 14-17 foundation 19:41:53 <suseROCKs> I'll scream if we go to 13am! :-) 19:41:57 <henne> 19 dinner 19:42:01 <gnokii_> woot lunch u get some cookies 19:42:12 <prusnak> henne: seems reasonable 19:42:12 <henne> scream for what? 19:42:15 <suseROCKs> so no time allocated for guests? 19:42:41 <henne> suseROCKs: we get guests to the topic sessions 19:42:44 <prusnak> guests can join at any time 19:42:55 <henne> except from 11-13 19:43:02 <henne> erm 10-11 19:43:04 <henne> sorry 19:43:10 <Dominian> 13am? 19:43:14 <prusnak> makes sense 19:43:29 <prusnak> Dominian: yes, nuernberg is in special timezone 19:43:30 <henne> Dominian: youre slow dude :P 19:43:30 <Dominian> heh sorry just NOW got in her ewhere I could start reading the backlog 19:43:39 <Dominian> been configuring routers :( 19:43:55 <suseROCKs> Dominian, Don't laugh. last time we did F2F no breaks! 19:44:38 <henne> suseROCKs: so roles (what is one up to and that do others expect) we do in the Governance session 19:44:42 <suseROCKs> henne, ok so you're saying 10 a.m. is the start of our convening? 19:44:58 <henne> and i think we should invite everyone that has a role now 19:45:26 <henne> Jos, Aj, Coolo 19:45:48 <henne> Klaas maybe 19:46:23 <henne> and for foundation we should invite 19:46:43 <henne> Jos, Markus and Cornelius 19:47:56 <suseROCKs> Sounds good to me 19:48:04 <suseROCKs> Next question 19:48:30 <suseROCKs> In the interest of transparency... what do we propose for ensuring this isn't viewed as closed-door? 19:48:41 <suseROCKs> e.g. how do we want to report the meeting? 19:48:50 <suseROCKs> can bugbot be present? 19:48:51 <henne> we take notes and send minutes :) 19:49:51 <suseROCKs> Who's the notetaker? not me 19:50:08 <suseROCKs> I can summarize, but you know I need my concentration to follow the meeting 19:50:10 <michl> suseROCKs: perhaps a live stream ? 19:50:22 <henne> oh please... 19:50:36 <henne> i take notes and send minutes 19:50:46 <suseROCKs> we have a volunteer! :-) 19:50:59 <henne> #action henne take notes of the f2f and send around minutes 19:51:20 <henne> anything else on the face 2 face meeting? 19:51:39 <suseROCKs> at HQ right? not at conf center? 19:52:10 <henne> yes. we don't have the conf center on monday... 19:52:44 <suseROCKs> cool beans 19:53:15 <henne> okay cool 19:53:17 <henne> next topic? 19:53:25 <suseROCKs> fast insertion of very brief topic 19:53:46 <suseROCKs> next online meeting date is scheduled for 6th. Do you guys want to have that meeting or just wait til f2f? I'm not going to be here for 6th 19:54:31 <henne> yes sure have it 19:54:43 <henne> we skip the one at the 20th already right? :) 19:54:58 <prusnak> suseROCKs: yep, we'll try to do one without you and see how it goes :) 19:55:04 <suseROCKs> not really.... we aren't skipping, we're just meeting in face to face :-) 19:55:15 <henne> true 19:55:21 <suseROCKs> prusnak, it should go swimmingly without me (the ass) around :-) 19:55:29 <henne> but anyway. no schedule changes... 19:55:43 <suseROCKs> okay 19:56:11 <henne> #topic where can we do better? 19:56:26 <suseROCKs> Get rid of suseROCKs :-) 19:56:33 <henne> has anyone a quicky? :) 19:57:20 <henne> i think conference awareness 19:57:47 <henne> can we do something so more people notice it and especially more people register? 19:58:07 <prusnak> we can post invitations to media - e-zines, local magazines ... 19:58:14 <prusnak> put banners on our websites 19:58:19 <suseROCKs> Jos and I have been coordinating with writers to write more about it and have a few coming out 19:58:31 <henne> yes thats the stuff you normaly do 19:58:33 <henne> what can we do 19:58:42 <suseROCKs> we (the board?) 19:59:11 <henne> no we white people 19:59:20 <Dominian> henne: Do better in what aspects? 19:59:21 <henne> why do you keep asking that question? :) 19:59:26 <suseROCKs> easy, henne 19:59:36 <henne> Dominian: conference awareness 19:59:50 <henne> means more registrations 19:59:50 <Dominian> ahh 19:59:54 <suseROCKs> henne, because you keep trying to make some distinction and I'm trying to figure out what the distionction is 20:00:22 <suseROCKs> we're doing what we can on marketing with the limited time frame we've been given 20:00:33 <henne> suseROCKs: i think you misunderstand then. when i say we in the board meeting i mean the board :) 20:01:26 <henne> how about we write other boards? 20:02:07 <prusnak> i can write to fedora board, spoke to project leader on sunday :) 20:02:16 <suseROCKs> Go for it 20:02:18 <henne> and ask them to convey our invitation? 20:02:48 <henne> okay what board are there? 20:02:53 <henne> can we each pick one? 20:02:59 <prusnak> can someone draft a letter we'll send? 20:03:17 <suseROCKs> at least on the US side, seems many in Fedora were aware of our conference. They mentioned it to me a number of times at Ohio Linux Fest, but kinda moot on US side as many can't afford to go across the water. 20:03:48 <henne> can't hurt to spam them again 20:03:52 <henne> ;) 20:03:55 <gnokii_> henne: u asked what u can do for that register more ppl its easy publish tomorrow is planned to made the decission about travel sponsoring 20:04:11 <prusnak> that's a good point 20:04:42 <henne> okay but what do we if you already publish something tomorrow? 20:04:43 <prusnak> it might attract more people if we were able to say, hey, hurry up, we have XY sponsorship packages 20:04:48 <henne> or did i misunderstand? 20:04:57 <prusnak> but i'm not sure if that's what we want 20:05:25 <henne> i thought all of that is handled by the the cfp team? 20:05:30 <henne> michl? 20:05:42 <michl> it is 20:05:52 <michl> and we vote on the travel request we received 20:06:03 <michl> we have a certain amount of money to spend 20:06:10 <henne> okay so you plan to publish something tomorrow? 20:06:14 <michl> which won't be enough for all request we'll receive 20:06:19 <michl> no 20:06:25 <michl> we start voting tomorrow 20:06:47 <suseROCKs> sponsorship announcement isn't going to be enough to boost registration, because we also want non-sponsored to show up 20:07:22 <michl> suseROCKs: not also, we want people to come because of openSUSE and not because of sponsored travel or similar 20:07:35 <henne> and we can't announce something if the decision isn'tdont.... 20:07:36 <suseROCKs> exactly, michl That was my point 20:07:41 <henne> done 20:07:56 <henne> so back to the contacting other boards thing 20:08:11 <henne> how about each of us sends a letter to one other board 20:08:17 <michl> henne: btw the Held Weizen isn't bad neither 20:08:24 <suseROCKs> I'll send to GNOME 20:08:42 <henne> i'll send to ubuntu 20:08:56 <suseROCKs> henne, you can't send an invitation to yourself! 20:09:00 <suseROCKs> :-) 20:09:21 <henne> prusnak to fedora 20:09:24 <henne> and michl? 20:09:29 <henne> to kde 20:09:43 <suseROCKs> notice no one is sending to the Novell board? :-) 20:09:51 * michl sends out information to a number journalists 20:10:16 <michl> but michl can send it to the KDE board as well 20:10:26 <henne> no need for a general draft. just write something and copy and paste some text of the announcement 20:10:30 <lupinstein> hey I know this is the wrong room for this, but has anyone or does anyone know how to set up a vpn server on opensuse 20:10:49 <henne> lupinstein: we are in the middle of a meeting 20:10:59 <henne> lupinstein: support is in #suse :) 20:11:19 <lupinstein> :Pyea I asked. No reply 20:11:31 <lupinstein> it sad that I hate our main chat room 20:11:36 <michl> henne: I hope we're not in the middle of a meeting but at the end of one !? 20:11:59 <lupinstein> oh, sorry guys 20:12:02 <lupinstein> I will shut now. 20:12:21 <henne> michl: you more and more develop into a klugscheisser. i see we rub off on you :) 20:12:24 <suseROCKs> michl, we have 7 more topics to cover.... What's your hurry? 20:12:46 <michl> henne: at least I develop into something 20:12:48 <henne> #action pavol send conference invitation to fedora 20:13:01 <henne> #action michl send conference invitation to KDE 20:13:12 <henne> #action suseROCKs send conference invitation to GNOME 20:13:21 <henne> #action henne send conference invitation to ubuntu 20:13:39 <henne> wonderful way to do better 20:13:42 <henne> next topic 20:13:52 <suseROCKs> an advice, its good idea to review the schedule and reference topics that are of interest to that particular project 20:13:52 <henne> #topic Question and Answers 20:14:23 <henne> are there any additional topics we need to discuss? 20:14:37 <Dominian> are you taking open questions? 20:14:39 <henne> this is the time for everybody to bring one up :) 20:14:55 <henne> Dominian: yes of course :) 20:14:56 <prusnak> i have one if noone else does 20:15:07 <Dominian> prusnak: you first 20:15:12 <Dominian> I definitely have one, but prusnak can go first 20:15:20 <prusnak> Dominian: you go first please :) 20:15:24 <Dominian> ok 20:15:29 <suseROCKs> question... how do we decide who goes first? :-) 20:15:59 <Dominian> This may not be the proper venue for this question, however, I'm a bit curious about how the entire opensuse member process evolves. 20:16:16 <Dominian> Mainly, as I've applied in the past, I can't apply again and my status shows "applied' etc 20:16:54 <Dominian> Was told a while back that it meant I was still 'in process' and being' watched' lol 20:17:23 <henne> Dominian: you apply, a group of people has a look at your contributions and votes 20:17:55 <Dominian> Right, which I was voted on MONTHS ago.. so does the vote stand for that meeting and then 'down the road' the person is reviewed again? 20:17:59 <Dominian> just curous 20:18:11 <Dominian> I'm in no hurry.. I just like knowing the 'machinery behind the machine' if you know what I mean. 20:18:22 <suseROCKs> Dominian, by apply again, are you saying you got a rejection and when you applied again you got that message? 20:18:57 <prusnak> i guess there is no mechanism to reapply 20:18:59 <prusnak> :-/ 20:19:01 <Dominian> suseROCKs: I was going to go back and reapply as before it was "not enough participation" which was about a year or so ago.. wanted to try an apply again. 20:19:10 <suseROCKs> there've been some bugs in the past that prevented re-application. If that's the case, we need to know if you are experienceing it. 20:19:14 <prusnak> darix: are you here ? 20:19:16 <henne> prusnak: why not? 20:19:18 <Dominian> Well, supposedly you are to be able to login to your user account and 'reapply' but mine just says "already applied" or something 20:19:28 <Dominian> suseROCKs: Yeah.. I'm experiencing that 20:19:29 <darix> prusnak: half 20:19:36 <henne> prusnak: there is. you just have to reject. i know we implemented that 20:19:39 <prusnak> darix: do we have a workflow in users.o.o to reapply ? 20:19:45 <darix> no 20:19:50 <prusnak> there you go 20:19:54 <darix> prusnak: i thought connect.o.o will do it? 20:20:09 <henne> Dominian: whats your username? 20:20:11 <prusnak> will do, once it is ready 20:20:13 <Dominian> yeah openSUSE member current status is now... blank 20:20:14 <Dominian> lol 20:20:20 <Dominian> it used to say "application in process" or something 20:20:22 <darix> I wont touch it if we dont get a timeline for the whole connect/users migration 20:20:22 <Dominian> henne: its dominian 20:20:29 <darix> Dominian: mailto darix@opensu.se 20:20:34 <henne> ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 20:20:35 <darix> will look at it tomorrow 20:20:38 <Dominian> darix: What info you need exactly? 20:20:42 <Dominian> just username or? 20:20:42 <darix> username 20:20:45 * Dominian nods 20:20:49 <Dominian> noted.. I'll send the email right now 20:21:05 <darix> prusnak: did you cover the nvidia issue already? 20:21:06 <prusnak> /o\ 20:21:27 <Dominian> on its way darix 20:21:27 <prusnak> darix: no, my next question, i just allow Dominian to ask first 20:21:38 <darix> Dominian: ok 20:21:47 <henne> what about nvidia? 20:21:50 <darix> his question is solved ;) 20:21:58 <Dominian> well sort of solved ;) 20:22:05 <Dominian> I'd like to reapply so we are 50/50 solved hehe ;) 20:22:06 <darix> henne: normally when i delete packages that violate the policy 20:22:13 <henne> Dominian: so it's a technical problem 20:22:16 <Dominian> henne: aye 20:22:18 <darix> i send them a mail and tell them not to do it again 20:22:42 <darix> we have atleast one user that did ignore the mail and is building the nvidia stuff in the obs again 20:22:57 <darix> so what i would like to know ... what to do with such users? 20:23:20 <henne> block their account 20:23:35 <suseROCKs> +1 but that's a technical decision so moot + :-) 20:23:36 <darix> henne: they can just create a new one and continue? 20:23:38 <henne> whats the problem? :) 20:23:41 <_michl> darix: what about second warning with saying we'll block your account 20:23:56 <darix> _michl: ok 20:24:02 <henne> darix: yes. what do you want to do. kill him? :) 20:24:05 <prusnak> _michl: that's what we try to settle right now 20:24:20 <prusnak> to have a process or workflow how to deal with these guys 20:25:01 <henne> block their account. and the one what ignores this you have to battle on technical grounds anyway 20:25:09 <darix> henne: i just dont want to decide it on my own? 20:25:09 <henne> s/what/that/ 20:25:16 <henne> darix: why not? :( 20:25:36 <darix> henne: because it is kinda defining a policy and that something the board/community should do 20:25:40 <darix> and 20:25:45 <darix> the board should moderate issues? 20:25:46 <darix> :) 20:25:54 <suseROCKs> not really, not according to what was stated earlier in this meeting 20:26:01 <henne> the policy is "don't misuse the OBS" 20:26:17 <henne> this is about enforcing it isnt it? 20:26:24 <darix> yes 20:26:45 <suseROCKs> if its clearly written, then darix you should not be in any awkward role to enforce it. 20:26:54 <henne> so i say warn them and if they ignore it and do it again block their account 20:27:13 <suseROCKs> However, the only concern I would think as to why such people might not be listening is if they can't read the language you wrote it in But welll... that's just something else 20:27:55 <henne> everybody can operate google translate... 20:28:34 <henne> darix: you can be sure that you have the full backing of the board to do that 20:28:37 <henne> right guys? 20:28:40 <darix> k 20:28:57 <suseROCKs> I got your back, darix 20:29:43 <suseROCKs> henne, but on another sub-topic, I guess related to workflow?..... 20:29:50 <nykkto> An idea to counter the language barrier would be to make a list of common offenses and then make a translated boiler plate for those offenses, or at least a simple one that says you have done something wrong and need to find out what it is before you get in trouble. 20:30:27 <suseROCKs> if such a person continues to flout, and darix or whomever blocks... shouldn't there be some kind of notice somewhere that this is a person who acts in such a way and thus if we see the person acting the same way elsewhere in the Project, we know this person has a history and act accordingly? 20:30:44 <prusnak> yes, you have our backing, but please document the process somewhere 20:30:54 <prusnak> and write a full explanation as a first warning 20:31:10 <prusnak> (and by full explanation I mean link to the related material ...) 20:32:44 <prusnak> suseROCKs: we might add some profile field to connect which will be editable (and viewable) only by board 20:33:25 <henne> guys... 20:33:53 <henne> this is a simple problem that now after we run the OBS since years pops up the first time 20:34:03 <henne> how overly complicated can we make this? 20:34:18 <suseROCKs> I didn't see anything overly complicated in what we just said 20:34:59 <henne> you talk about a project wide messaging system that notifies us of darix blocking users.... 20:35:14 <henne> i take it you want it also for other tools? ;) 20:35:45 <henne> just delete the account and take it from there 20:36:00 <suseROCKs> all he's gotta do is just let us know that he blocked someone becaus that person repeatedly refused to abidbe by the rules. 20:36:12 <suseROCKs> its hardly complicated. 20:36:39 <henne> darix: then please at the end send a notification to board@ 20:36:47 <suseROCKs> simple! 20:37:42 <henne> okay anything else? 20:38:04 * gnokii_ serve henne a cup of coffee 20:38:40 <suseROCKs> I have nothing and I'd like to go now 20:39:01 <_michl> same with me 20:39:09 * _michl is hungry 20:39:10 <henne> okay. thanks for participating then :) 20:39:34 <henne> the next board meeting will be in 2 weeks. same time, same channel 20:39:49 <henne> have a lot of fun... 20:39:55 <henne> #endmeeting