18:02:47 #startmeeting 18:02:47 Meeting started Wed Sep 8 18:02:47 2010 UTC. The chair is henne. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:02:47 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:03:06 #meetingtopic openSUSE Board Meeting 18:03:18 Welcome to the openSUSE Board Meeting 18:03:25 The topics for this meeting are: 18:03:45 moin 18:03:46 1. openSUSE Foundation 18:03:53 2. Trademark Approval Process 18:04:02 3. Status Membership Approvals 18:04:08 4. Where do we need to improve ? 18:04:13 5. Questions & Answers 18:05:04 * VenomVelvet is looking interestedly 18:05:43 hi hi i'mma here! 18:06:09 who else is here? 18:06:32 is it just me and henne? 18:06:40 * michl is alive and attending 18:06:42 and michl 18:06:51 prusnak excused himself 18:07:11 you have got several bystanders suseROCKs 18:07:13 yaloki? 18:07:24 VenomVelvet, Innocent Bystanders ;-) 18:07:53 yaloki? 18:08:04 wir sind alle hier 18:08:46 henne, suseROCKs: yes? 18:08:48 henne, Do you speak German? 18:08:56 oh, forgot 18:09:04 but almost on time :D 18:09:17 so let's get started 18:09:21 suseROCKs: right now? no 18:09:29 #topic openSUSE Foundation 18:10:00 openSUSE Foundation - the never ending stor 18:10:02 y 18:10:14 yes 18:10:32 so basically, we're still waiting on whether novell will fund the foundation or not, right ? 18:10:39 Jos, Alan and myself had a conversation and Jos changed the proposal a bit 18:10:48 can we set a deadline please? 18:10:59 huh? changed the proposal? 18:11:06 michl: in what way? 18:11:21 into more the style of the a foundation driving funds/spreading budget and taking action for legal staff 18:11:28 no technical decision making 18:11:40 but that's pretty much what we already said 18:11:48 ack 18:11:58 and Alan planned to be in Nürnberg next week and we planned to meet there to again do another round for finalization 18:12:25 and yesterday or on Monday Alan cancelled his trip to Germany due to some reason 18:12:34 so when can you re-propose it to novell? 18:12:59 i'm getting the feeling that we should just use another name 18:13:02 and skip all this 18:13:11 we need to set up a meeting with Alan, do the finalization, agree with you guys 18:13:19 and then can propose it again 18:13:29 ok here's my stance right now... 18:13:46 we're dragging and dragging here. With no end in sight and no real light at the end of the tunnel 18:14:10 meanwhile, we heear constantly people wanting to see funds so they can get sponsored to spread the word of openSUSE 18:14:36 and we have certain people who are losing money like a broken leaky faucet paying for things out of their own pockets on a monthly basis with no end in sight 18:15:04 * yaloki waves 18:15:13 get to the point please :) 18:15:20 no need to be dramatic... 18:15:31 I believe I gave the points 18:15:39 suseROCKs: you did 18:15:56 brb 18:16:54 so what now? 18:16:57 suseROCKs: and any conclusion to your points ? 18:17:26 well michl A question that has arisen in the past is whether we set up an organization with or without Novell's support 18:18:17 Concerns that Novell has for some rather minor details and not readily recognizing the overarching need is a concern and it further deteroriates rather than spurs growth of our community 18:18:37 So at this point I have to ask .... do we sit around and wait any more? 18:19:15 thats what we are trying to devide 18:19:23 so whats your stance on this? 18:19:30 decide* 18:19:32 henne, i hope you meant decide :-) we have enough division as it is 18:20:22 so i think that we should go with "some other name e.v." 18:20:38 and go without initial funding 18:20:46 I'm not 100% sure henne. We've put a lot of stock into what we thought would happen with the founding of a foundation in partnership with Novell. Now we have to think about our alternatives and whether to go it alone (which means we won't even have certain rights) 18:21:11 but please remember that and e.V. or other kind of foundation should own the trademarks to do its duty successfully 18:21:25 may I? 18:21:29 henne, that may be our only choice although "some other name e.V." is going to be a big problem too. There's already naming confusion out there. 18:21:51 * AlbertoP reads "trademarks" and coughs :) 18:21:53 we've put a lot of stock into Novell paying for the foundation creation and give it seed money 18:21:54 VenomVelvet, Certainly 18:22:15 obviously its harder to achieve then we thought 18:22:30 so lets do it without money from novell 18:22:48 michl: we always said that taking in donation and spreading them was prio 1 18:23:01 and for the we can be arschkrampen e.v. 18:23:08 as long as people give us their money 18:23:21 ok I'll bite... whats an arschrampen? 18:23:30 and we don't have to own the trademarks 18:23:34 suseROCKs: never ask :) 18:23:35 henne: but arschkrampen e.V. will hardly get donations for openSUSE 18:23:43 As I got it from previous meetings, the main goal was to a) open up broader ressources for the community and b) have something to say in where to openSUSE goes as the community. So I do not see any point in going without novell. Initial funding from them should be there as well as founding the e.V. will cost some money too and you do not want to pay for that privately. And you should not... 18:23:45 ...have to do it. 18:24:14 VenomVelvet: b) is nonsense 18:24:37 VenomVelvet: and we talk about the initial funding and seed money 18:25:03 michl: why is that? 18:25:24 henne: it is? I remember a meeting about half a year ago. there was something like to give the community a voice in novells way of doing things. That will not work when the e.V. is without novell I guess? 18:25:36 one primary goal is the funding of travel sponsorships and materials. I don't know how we're going to achieve that in the near future if we can only get drips/drabs donations and no seed to start with. :-( 18:26:24 henne: simple because its not the official openSUSE foundation 18:26:25 VenomVelvet: "give the community a voice in novells way of doing things." huh? 18:26:29 VenomVelvet, Well... that's the question here. If such a foundation enables the community to have a stronge voice and Novell is let's just say slow to support this foundation... then we're not achieving that goal right now, are we? 18:26:39 michl: why isnt it? we can start it and declare it 18:26:54 suseROCKs: not travelling and maybe concentrating on what is accessible to much more people? Like a decent network identity (let's say our websites do not give exactly the image of healthy community) ;-) 18:27:19 henne: you may be able to collect some donations from friends and family but I doubt companies will donate there or become an openSSE sponsor via a name e.V. 18:27:21 suseROCKs: the other choice, as it becomes obvious, is to have nothgin at all 18:27:31 michl: why? 18:27:42 Would some kind of email petition with thousands of signees speed novell up a bit? 18:27:47 becuase its not names openSUSE e.v. ? 18:27:50 named* 18:27:55 henne: yes 18:28:13 so the inner circle knows about name e.V. is openSUSE 18:28:23 anyone else needs explanation 18:28:23 why? 18:28:28 we can even announce it? 18:28:29 VenomVelvet: we will never have a say in how novell uses its money 18:28:33 henne: haha 18:28:41 michl is correct. That's the whole point of value in a "trademark" because it creates identity. And it will be confusing to have openSUSE project and The-Foundation-that-shall-not-be-named-simiarly 18:28:43 what if the purpose of the e.V. is sponsoring openSUSE and you acknowledge who sponsor XXX e.V. on openSUSE stuff? Is that impossible? 18:28:52 VenomVelvet: one idea is to have some budget from novell (= funding) that the foundation can control 18:29:03 michl: i'm serious 18:29:09 yes. and the trademark agreement if I got that right 18:29:11 maybe you remember Prince when he wasn't allowed to use his name anymore 18:29:53 michael_, henne is too young to remember Prince. :-) 18:29:55 so you want it to be "The foundation formerly intended to be called openSUSE e.V. e.V"? 18:30:22 as long as the opensuse project declaers Geekos e.v. as its official foundation to take donations 18:30:24 bitshuffler, in a nutshell, that's basically what it has to be without Novell's blessing 18:30:28 the name does not matter 18:30:47 henne: another hihi 18:30:55 I believe the name _does_ matter 18:30:58 it's about trust 18:31:03 thank you yaloki 18:31:09 having an "openSUSE foundation" would be a lot better 18:31:12 I remember Novell Linux Desktop 18:31:20 then again, we can't wait indefinitely for funding either 18:31:24 one it was changed to SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 18:31:34 okay the name matters a little 18:31:36 yaloki: it matters as long as doing this thing does not require centuries. And it all depends on how you market it. 18:31:38 michl: do you have an idea of a timeline ? what sort of time frame are we looking at ? 18:31:39 because of the value/recognition/brand of SUSE 18:31:57 AlbertoP: agreed 18:32:05 michl: that is product. we talk donations 18:32:26 i remember prince changing his name to symbol and people still buy his recorda 18:32:30 records 18:32:32 heh 18:32:37 henne: no, it recognition, brand etc - doesn't matter if its a product, project or anyhting else 18:32:38 that is artist. this is donations 18:32:46 openSUSE is damned well known 18:32:50 so please stop comaring apples with bananas 18:33:04 henne: ultimately, if we have no alternative, I agree, better a foundation with a different name than no foundation at all 18:33:13 but let's see what sort of time frame we're looking at 18:33:25 I believe it's still worth waiting a bit to see what comes out of it 18:33:26 yaloki: no one can tell you 18:33:26 well from what i gather here we're not at the point 18:33:27 right? 18:33:30 (and I'm the one losing money here) 18:33:35 i think we are. 18:33:45 michl, Can you give us a better idea of where we are heading? Is there better optimism than before? same? 18:33:55 when we started this adventure sometime in spring we thought we're done with the paper work in June/july time frame 18:34:09 set the foundation up and have a big foundation party at the conference 18:34:17 yeah 18:34:21 the only thing we know now, this won't happen 18:34:24 at the conference 18:34:27 right 18:34:38 we don't know when this will happen at all 18:34:42 or if 18:34:46 henne: right 18:34:47 and the other thing we know now... we don't even have a idea of what to say at the conference about where we're headed 18:35:03 we can't even technically say "its in the works" 18:35:14 michl: ok, so, basically, finishing the paperwork is something we can estimate, can't we ? 18:35:20 so, i'm repeating myself but, can we set a deadline please? 18:35:24 michl: or are we dependent on alan who only has time once every two months ? 18:35:25 yaloki: yes, we can 18:35:44 michl: ok, so what we don't know about is how long it'll take upmost management to read it + give a reply 18:36:04 michl: what sort of timeframe are we talking about for finishing the paperwork then, what do you think ? 18:36:31 henne, deadline for? Deadline for finishing paperwork to Novell? Or deadline for when we say if you cross this date with no action, we proceed on our own? 18:36:43 suseROCKs: the latter, I believe 18:36:51 I think by end of next week, latest till Sep 22/23 18:36:56 the latter yes 18:37:20 I think we need to do a better job of campaigning for a foundation 18:37:22 michl: ok, excellent 18:37:34 michl: and then it will be sent, right? 18:37:38 michl: and then we have no idea 18:37:48 again challenging will be to get an appointment with the Execs 18:37:54 we haven't really blogged, written, etc. much about why we need a foundation and all that. We haven't made great public groundswell of support that would make Novell notice and pay attention to the issue more. 18:38:18 suseROCKs: like they would notice that.. 18:38:35 sometimes we get surprised and they do notice :-) 18:38:44 suseROCKs: and I wouldn't really write about it know, I wouldn't want to disappoint people 18:38:51 because it takes so long or even because it wouldn't happen 18:39:03 * AlbertoP agrees with yaloki 18:39:07 suseROCKs: never. ever. 18:39:07 but if we *want* their investment into the foundation, and we're not getting anywhere under the current circumstances, then the campaign is a last ditch effort before we strike out on our own. 18:39:47 well 18:39:49 the thing is 18:39:50 they don't notice... sure... and we don't shout from the highest mountaintops neither. 18:39:51 and Novell in this case is people we have to deal with 18:39:55 please don't forget this 18:39:56 even more important than the foundation having the name "opensuse" 18:40:05 it's the bad image for novell if the foundation doesn't 18:40:08 its not the company switchboard we're talking about 18:40:23 "we are the geekoz e.V. because novell didn't want to give us the right to use opensuse in our name" 18:40:23 what about an online petition to novell? 18:40:32 guys 18:40:41 please 18:41:27 don't get riddicolus. we are dealing with people here 18:41:33 yaloki: not a bad name... not a bad name! ;-) 18:41:41 and making publicity stunt never helps when you deal with people 18:41:45 AlbertoP: we can't even use that one, it's trademarked as well 18:41:47 henne, I recognize that we have to deal with Novell and should do so with some decorum. But you can't always ask us to just sit by timidly and idly. 18:41:51 henne: people that ignores we exist :) 18:42:03 AlbertoP: absolutely not true 18:42:10 yaloki: really? lol...what didn't they trademark? 18:42:17 AlbertoP: I mean "geeko" 18:42:22 henne: the result speak clearly 18:42:25 * wolfiR likes Geekoz e.V. fwiw 18:42:31 heheh 18:42:33 suseROCKs: i'm not saying we should sit by 18:42:39 ok 18:42:42 so, a deadline 18:42:45 AlbertoP: to your tinfoil ears maybe :) 18:43:03 henne: just because I am direct and say what I think... LOL 18:43:07 michl: based on your experience, what could be a realistic timeframe that would still give them a chance to read + reply ? 18:43:13 michl: 2 months, 3 months ? 18:43:13 AlbertoP: we speak about people that do awesome things for opensuse. including money, backing and everything 18:43:55 let's get back to the topic and move on 18:43:57 ok I have a proposal 18:43:57 yaloki: tough question 18:44:03 henne: as said, results are not visible 18:44:11 michl: we won't kill you if you're wrong :)) 18:44:12 may I make a proposal now? 18:44:33 michl: how long did it take for the first one, from poking to reply ? 18:44:48 I'd say by end of October it should be possible to read, reply and/or accept/reject 18:44:54 okay 18:44:57 that doesn't sound too bad 18:45:15 how about first week of november for a deadline ? 18:45:16 but I know October 31st is end of Fiscal Year 18:45:27 ah 18:45:36 I think October isn't realistic either. Let's give them to Dec 1 18:45:38 which means, bad timing for funding ? 18:45:48 and then we're heading to Thanksgiving season were the US literally is closed for almost 2 weeks 18:46:10 and you can't get anything done in the second half of december either 18:46:11 nah we still work during holiday weeks. We're not Europeans :-) 18:46:12 hm but if its that late then we miss the conference to do something 18:46:33 henne, well if you'd let me make a proposal here, I can respond to that 18:46:39 suseROCKs: ok, shoot 18:46:59 we need to poke Alan to speed it up 18:47:05 clearly, yes 18:47:28 Proposal: We do go by whatever deadline we agree to as the make-or-break date for Novell involvment. But simultaneously during that period we already begin exploring our Plan B options. And we do this publicly and visibly 18:47:30 as the annoyance people have here is good to understand as there is no visible progress for several months 18:48:28 and i don't think poking is the means we need to explore further 18:48:42 michl: is there anyone we can poke to get it quicker to the higher levels, gerald maybe? 18:48:54 i think what suseROCKs proposes is a very good idea 18:49:12 This proposal achieves the following: Gives Novell adequate chance to respond, gives us a chance to be prepared in case of a nay so we don't have to start all over again, gives us the chance to nudge a little pressure by discussing publicly what we intend if we have to do Plan B and ultimately also gives us a chance to go ahead and discuss at conference sooner 18:49:23 yaloki: we can involve him but I don't know if this helps 18:49:34 michl: mkay 18:50:03 suseROCKs: although, tbh, I don't think there is much to be discussed 18:50:07 the plan/purpose is clear 18:50:21 the legal shmoo/todo is very complex, but nothing to discuss at the conf 18:50:28 yaloki, well obviously we're going to have to discuss a name at the very least :-) 18:50:31 whether/how to get funding is.. well.. no idea 18:50:39 Geeko e.V., done 18:50:47 :) 18:51:00 or The Geeko Bunch, maybe 18:51:01 at at the conference, really we should have a "What do YOU want in a foundation?" as we've never really asked our community that directly. 18:51:12 suseROCKs: ok, true 18:51:18 a 30min session about that, good idea 18:51:21 yaloki, The Save Yaloki Foundation :-) 18:51:26 heh 18:51:39 people elected us so we decide these things guys 18:51:42 Save Geeko sounds better :) 18:51:48 we could present our idea 18:51:56 which is independend of novell funding or not 18:51:57 henne: of course, but we can still discuss whether people have additional ideas 18:52:03 henne: agreed 18:52:09 and at the same time could present the two ways it could go 18:52:11 "The Green Cross" ;D 18:52:19 henne: yes 18:52:23 henne: nah! suseROCKs stole votes promising geeko plushes! ;-) 18:52:28 and then discuss and ask for feedback 18:52:45 henne: I think that's actually what suseROCKs proposed, implicitly ;D 18:52:47 AlbertoP, and I had actual plushies stolen from me before I even saw one! 18:53:02 yaloki, si, that's it 18:53:03 yaloki: too implicit for me ;) 18:53:11 AlbertoP: yeah he's all promises 18:53:16 henne: now it's explicit 18:53:29 okay so now back to the topic of the deadline 18:53:47 january 15 18:53:53 fair enough! 18:54:00 i think the conference is a nice point in time 18:54:09 yaloki: that's more then fair 18:54:10 for the deadline??? 18:54:13 yes 18:54:17 5 weeks from now? 18:54:18 henne: noway 18:54:23 mid january 18:54:31 realistic time frame to give a chance to novell to reply 18:54:31 we could do the initial meeting for the e.v. there 18:54:32 hint: would be nice to announce it when a release is done (if possible, clearly)... would add momentum and increase downloads :P 18:54:34 and for us to prep 18:55:04 you waited long...some more month does not hurt :P 18:55:09 henne: sorry, way too early, that won't give a realistic chance to novell to reply 18:55:16 why not? 18:55:19 henne: if we take it 5 weeks from now, we can as well directly go without novell 18:55:31 +1 18:55:34 but we already tried months 18:55:37 given that half of december is useless, and 1-2 weeks in january too 18:55:41 its not that this is a new idea 18:55:52 I'd say mid january 18:56:00 henne, Yes but this time we're gong to do months with pressure :-) 18:56:14 henne: yeah but cmon, if we have a clear plan, if we have enough time to prepare everything, I think it's perfectly OK for it to take a few more months 18:56:15 there was totally no pressure in the last rounds 18:56:29 yaloki: yep 18:56:33 let's not put ourselves under pressure to find out what needs to be done legally in 5 weeks 18:56:42 don't underestimate that 18:56:45 yaloki: whats there to prepare? 18:57:01 henne: the paperwork, the statuses, find people for the election of the foundation board 18:57:08 yaloki: you yourself said 5 minutes aog: we discussed all the legal shmoo already 18:57:12 henne: eg bylaws 18:57:18 henne: I didn't say that 18:57:35 henne: discussion doesn't mean it created and ready 18:58:01 michl: i didnt say that. i said we have 5 weeks to create bylaws for a very simple verein 18:58:09 sounds very reasonable to me 18:58:13 hmh 18:58:17 here's a point to highlight henne .... you want a shortened deadline period, but even today just now, we're already talking record-breaking one hour on just this one topic. It's a sigggggn, dude :-) 18:58:43 henne, who's going to work ont he bylaws for the next 5 weeks? Not me! 18:58:47 personally, I still don't know 100% what needs to be done for the legalese 18:58:57 Jan 15? 18:59:00 and rupert doesn't seem to have any time on his hands 18:59:31 so either we find some time frame rupert can commit to, or we have to $ for a lawyer 18:59:37 well there are millions of e.v. in germany 18:59:43 it can't be that hard 19:00:05 henne: but there is a difference between a hobbies e.V. of 20 people 19:00:09 and a foundation like openSUSE 19:00:21 huh why? 19:00:26 henne: I believe we want a satisfactory degree of safety for the future 19:00:30 at least, I want it 19:00:42 that's true. at least here int he United states. different classes of exemption exists for different types of organizations. 19:00:43 and that means going through a lawyer or someone else with expertise 19:00:49 there are quite a few loopholes 19:01:53 let's vote 19:02:02 so we can move on cuz there's no point discussing this topic any further 19:02:15 5w or mid-jan 19:02:18 * yaloki mid-jan 19:02:30 So there's two votes actually... Vote #1 is: Deadline October 20th or Jan 15Th? 19:02:35 Mid-January 19:02:41 Mid-January 19:02:48 okay :) 19:02:52 Rupert... your vote please? 19:02:56 heh 19:03:11 let's poke rupert and pavol by email 19:03:23 Mid-January (I do not have a vote do I? ;)) 19:03:24 ok and the second vote is... do we agree to begin exploring our Plan B and discussing the state of Foundation at Conference? 19:03:25 yes 19:03:31 +1 19:03:32 suseROCKs: yes 19:03:42 I can take the AI of making a presentation 19:03:45 suseROCKs: yes 19:03:55 yaloki: you would have to take the AI to find a slot 19:04:00 a few slides to introduce the topic, what we've decided, done so far, the options, and then discuss 19:04:05 we're way past the programm deadline... 19:04:10 Do we have a dedicated board slot? 19:04:14 doesn't matter 19:04:25 if there isn't time for a BoF talk like that, the conference is pointless 19:04:56 AI to me then, I'll also poke the conf committee for a slot 19:05:15 we'll also have to talk about what needs to be done next 19:05:20 let's not forget to use #action here 19:05:28 I'd really love to have a clear outline of what needs to be done in terms of legalese 19:05:37 and #info for what we have voted upon today 19:05:51 #action yaloki poke conference committee for a slot + foundation presentation at the conference 19:05:54 #chair suseROCKs yaloki michl 19:05:54 Current chairs: henne michl suseROCKs yaloki 19:05:58 #action yaloki poke conference committee for a slot + foundation presentation at the conference 19:06:11 not sure it works.. but.. umm.. nevermind 19:06:17 I'll add it to retrospectiva too 19:06:24 21:05:28 < yaloki> I'd really love to have a clear outline of what needs to be done in terms of legalese 19:06:29 but I guess that only rupert can do that 19:06:36 and he seems to be out of free time 19:06:44 #info Board has decided to self-impose a Jan15, 2011 deadline for response from Novell on a Foundation before switching to Plan B 19:06:49 yaloki: there are a lot of pages on the internet 19:06:50 s/out of/short of/ 19:06:59 yaloki: i can digg into that 19:07:01 would someone take that as an AI ? 19:07:06 henne: ok, excellent 19:07:17 #info Board agrees to begin developing Plan B visibly and publicly before the Jan 15, 2011 deadline and discussing it at the openSUSE Conference 19:07:25 #action henne make a summary of what needs to be done in terms of legalese for an e.V. 19:07:37 next topic then 19:07:44 hm 19:07:53 or should we also post about it somewhere ? 19:08:11 yaloki, yes that's part of the "publicly and visbily" it was implicit :-) 19:08:18 news.o.o ? 19:08:23 not sure it's news.. but.. 19:08:27 might be better than on a personal blog 19:08:42 or do we still have the spotlight thingy? ;) 19:08:57 i can do a posting on news.o.o about the session at the conference 19:09:03 once you have details 19:09:03 well we decided to condense everything to news so its moot to dig that issue up again 19:09:11 and once the conference is finally announced 19:09:13 yaloki: we have, last post from January 8 or so 19:09:18 henne: I'll make a post once I've prepared the slides, same work anyway 19:09:26 k 19:09:32 l 19:09:32 timeframe <=1week from now 19:09:40 that ok? 19:09:44 sure 19:10:04 #action yaloki initial post/summary about foundation, plan B, next steps, session at conference 19:10:08 #action yaloki make news.o.o posting about the conference BoF session about the foundation 19:10:10 ok, next topic then 19:10:20 #undo 19:10:20 Removing item from minutes: 19:10:45 * yaloki does a memory dump of meetbot to check that 0x1983b10 19:10:57 #topic Trademark Approval Process 19:11:12 huge succes on trademark approval 19:11:21