18:02:53 #startmeeting 18:02:53 Meeting started Wed Aug 11 18:02:53 2010 UTC. The chair is henne. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:02:53 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:02:57 #meetingtopic Welcome to the openSUSE Project Meeting! 18:03:03 #undo 18:03:10 #meetingtopic Welcome to the openSUSE Board Meeting! 18:03:21 oh, schon vorbei :-D 18:03:23 ? 18:03:23 The topics for this meeting are: 18:03:38 1. openSUSE Foundation 18:03:38 2. Trademark Approval Process 18:03:38 1. Revise the Guidelines 18:03:38 2. How do we speed up the approval process? 18:03:38 3. Where do we fail? 18:03:41 1. Improving Board activity visibility 18:03:43 2. Services Documentaion 18:03:45 4. Questions & Answers 18:03:48 1. From Wiki (see questions section below) 18:03:51 2. From Channel 18:04:13 lets rock! 18:04:20 * suseROCKs is here now 18:04:30 * rhorstkoetter also still is ;) 18:04:37 #chair rhorstkoetter suseROCKs yaloki prusnak michl 18:04:37 Warning: Nick not in channel: michl 18:04:37 Current chairs: henne michl prusnak rhorstkoetter suseROCKs yaloki 18:04:56 #topic openSUSE Foundation 18:05:13 is there any movement despite michls vacation? 18:05:15 michl isn't around. seems we have a problem with foundation topic then 18:05:16 suseROCKs? 18:05:30 Comments were given to Michl by other board members, but it seems Michl left without telling us whether he has incorporated those statements and delivered them to Novell 18:06:05 My guess is he had so much on his plate trying to wrap things up before leaving on vacation that he couldn't get to it in time. 18:06:43 yeah i think so too 18:06:49 also its vacation season over here 18:06:51 so skip it ;-) 18:07:05 who let that guy in? 18:07:10 henne: when is his vacation over? 18:07:18 rhorstkoetter, He's due back Monday 18:07:41 in the interim, jospoortvliet has agreed to fund all money that we want in the Foundation personally 18:07:44 suseROCKs: awesome, I propose we bump the ml thread then in time 18:07:49 k 18:07:53 Let's give a big cheer to jospoortvliet for his generous donation! 18:07:55 next topic? 18:08:00 jospoortvliet: much appreciated! 18:08:04 wel personally... hehe 18:08:05 * rhorstkoetter waves on jospoortvliet 18:08:14 I intended to steal it from henne 18:08:18 but apparently he's poor 18:08:26 good luck 18:08:30 he spends it on beer (go figure, he didn't have time to drink beer yesterday)_ 18:08:37 next topic? 18:08:38 it's not apparent... it's "starkingly obvious" :-) 18:08:42 yes next topic 18:08:47 henne: please 18:08:50 #topic Trademark Approval Process 18:09:20 whats that about? :_) 18:09:22 I have a proposal here in regard of process and in regard of action 18:09:30 1. process 18:10:01 I'd propose to wait one week for board memeber's reject/approve, then sum up, then get back to requester 18:10:20 we urgently need to accerate this 18:10:25 agreed? 18:10:43 well that brings up the deeper question... are we even paying attention to the board mails in a timely manner in order to respond? 18:10:56 we should 18:11:08 or we should take this as a motivation to do 18:11:24 We've had two recent trademark requests since the last board meeting. 18:11:34 thus I say one week for an opportunity to jump in, otherwise your voice get neglected# 18:11:41 i.e. isn't counted 18:11:43 I chose not to be so quick to respond this time in order to let others in the board get a chance at first response, and yet, nothing. 18:11:53 erm guys 18:11:55 http://retro.opensuse.org/projects/board-work/tickets 18:12:01 you know the process right? 18:12:04 suseROCKs: I actually followed the same strategy 18:12:06 lol 18:12:17 rhorstkoetter, ok them my strategy bombed :-) 18:12:40 henne: to be honest I failed here 18:13:15 so if someone sends mail to askpermission about opensuse the forward that to board@ 18:13:27 pavol then picks it up and puts it into retro as ticket 18:13:37 so it doesnt get lost on the ml 18:13:39 anyways, there is one posted by pavol three months ago without a response 18:13:46 we then vote by comment to the ticket 18:13:55 * suseROCKs tries to remember his login to retro as its not linked to the other infrastructure login... 18:13:55 henne: the process is awesome if actually used 18:14:00 my mistake 18:14:13 okay 18:14:20 then as always: just do it :) 18:14:24 * suseROCKs remembers 18:14:30 henne: but what we do after a certain timeframe without responses? 18:14:49 rhorstkoetter: be ashamed that we don't do what we are supposed to do? :) 18:15:09 * suseROCKs proposes a motion to be ashamed 18:15:16 henne: that should be first step, second step should be to change that behaviour 18:15:40 ok, as of taken action ... 18:15:48 thats the usual response to shame ;) 18:15:57 I talked about that one with suseROCKs earlier 18:16:06 rhorstkoetter, but that would require involving jospoortvliet. He's the psycho major. :-) 18:16:09 how about we three take 10 minutes now to go through the requests? 18:16:15 IMO we're way too strict in accepting requests 18:16:35 henne, let's discuss rhorstkoetter's second issue first as its paramount to how we approve stuff henceforth 18:16:46 suseROCKs: thx 18:16:52 ok, here it is 18:17:23 from my perspective we should definitely support requests like kde-look artwork with opensuse geeko, furniture with opensuse logo 18:17:32 i.e. things that promote the project 18:17:39 and help the spread the word 18:17:42 ^^ 18:17:58 this does not count for offensive/illegal stuff certainly 18:18:40 yes i think so too 18:18:54 especially since we don't have the means to sell furniture ourselves yet 18:19:02 what we should reject is just requests where someone tries to "trittbrettfahren" 18:19:08 so until then i would grant ANY request to use the trademark to seel shit 18:19:11 henne: +1 18:19:14 "yet" Hmmm... that's so provocative. :-) 18:19:16 that's what I meant 18:19:17 we dont get the money but we get the exposure 18:19:37 henne, Ok so we're reversing stance now? 18:19:51 did we have a stance? 18:19:59 we just should reject e.g. a shop selling whatever and trying to use a similar logo as our's for his business 18:20:04 if yes (i dodnt know) we reverse it ;) 18:20:16 we rejected the furniture request. We rejected someone last year who wanted to put the logo on hand-crafted coins to sell at fairs, etc. 18:20:33 and the reason we rejected the latter was because "we don't know this person." 18:20:41 +1, and we propose to accept those inthe future 18:20:59 as it's a welcome opportunity to spread the word about the project/community 18:21:15 I say as long as the artwork is not modified, and is done in a tasteful (i.e. not placed on anything offensive or reflects badly on openSUSE) we say yes. 18:21:20 suseROCKs: yes. that was what we did 18:21:30 at leastthat's my proposal. we should be able to decide on common sense. opinions? 18:22:00 henne: no, we e.g. rejected the furniture request. you remember? 18:22:04 if we three decide like that it is reality boyz 18:22:06 so just do it 18:22:22 if we take the proposed road there would be no argument to reject something like this 18:22:33 rhorstkoetter: "yes. that was what we did" <- yes i know that we rejected the furniture thingee 18:22:50 henne: so, this time you'd accept it? 18:22:58 or naybe you even had 18:23:06 s/naybe/maybe 18:23:12 i can dig out the logs that show you that this was always my position :) 18:23:16 hush rhorstkoetter We got him while we're still ahead. Don't make him think it through! :-) 18:23:27 suseROCKs: lol 18:23:36 ok here's the thing... 18:23:38 henne: no worries. good to hear that we're in sync 18:23:41 we are three 18:23:48 ok I think you guys agree, just move on dudes... 18:23:58 that's exactly 50% of the board to agree that this is our new stance. 18:24:02 jospoortvliet: do you agree as well? 18:24:04 the 10 min to go through the requests sounds like a task you should do after the meeting is done :D 18:24:06 just curious 18:24:06 yes I do 18:24:11 for NOW 18:24:20 jospoortvliet: +1 18:24:21 until there is a foundation and we can make $$$ ourselves 18:24:26 ok, next then? 18:24:29 maybe make a 1 year allowance each time 18:24:34 then we demand a % 18:24:53 jospoortvliet: this is something I'm not sure about 18:24:58 demand a % 18:25:06 can be discussed when we have a foundation 18:25:06 reason ... 18:25:10 now not relevant anyway... 18:25:12 jospoortvliet, well there's also a re-review of our current trademark usage guidelines, as brought up in last meeting. So that's another thing we'll be looking at soon, and you'll probably like to speak your input into that. 18:25:12 can take years 18:25:15 :D 18:25:24 so really move on for now 18:25:38 but try to make clear to those asking for allowance it is temporary not eternal 18:26:03 jospoortvliet: the trademakr guidelines say: we reserve the right to revoke your permission at any time. 18:26:14 henne: ok so that's done too 18:26:18 anyway 18:26:24 henne, which is different than "you have a term-limit" 18:26:27 henne: may you have an URL to those guidelines please? 18:26:30 so lets vote now :) 18:26:42 rhorstkoetter: http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:Trademark_guidelines 18:26:47 but that's something we need to review in the guidelines, which isn't being discussed atm until we go through the text 18:26:48 henne: thx 18:27:16 * suseROCKs has to teach rhorstkoetter never to use an before a U 18:27:22 suseROCKs: do I hear you volunteering? 18:27:32 * suseROCKs volunteers to teach :-D 18:27:47 rhorstkoetter, me and michl volunteered this last time, so yes 18:28:00 suseROCKs: awesome, thx 18:28:46 ... still awaken? 18:28:52 henne, do we have documentation about how to respond to the requestor after approval/rejection? 18:29:18 we tend to leave such correspondence matters in michl's hands, but as is obvious now, we're in a vacuum when he's away 18:29:33 well it ain't rocket science does that have to be documented? 18:29:39 suseROCKs: he'sback on Mondays 18:29:56 jospoortvliet, Yes. We have to make sure proper people have it on file 18:30:00 Novell legal, etc. 18:30:13 ? 18:30:21 they leave it in our hands 18:30:26 so let's keep it simple 18:30:28 and just do it 18:30:29 they just forwar dthe request and we answer 18:30:31 jospoortvliet, One important distinction to note. We're the guardians of the trademark, but we're not the owner of it. Novell still is. 18:30:34 until now michl has done it 18:30:40 IMO we do not need to document how we respond to requesters. let's keep it KISS 18:30:46 agreed 18:30:54 suseROCKs: I know 18:31:19 what's more important is to establish a process who responds 18:31:21 I'm fairly certain Michl mentioned at some point that he does some information pass-along to Novell. That's why I'm asking 18:31:26 otherwise nobody does ;) 18:31:36 otherwise, I'd just send a "Hey, congrats on approval!" and be done with it 18:32:06 suseROCKs: KISS while mentioning the temporary nature of approval 18:32:19 jospoortvliet seems to have reasons for this 18:32:41 so, who does? michl? 18:33:11 if we're going to just approve, then let's do so today and send to them by end of the day. I'll do it 18:33:46 I'll g to bed after the meeting. I'm in Europe ;) 18:33:53 and if there's some bureaucratic issue we futzed up, we'll let Michl do cleanup in aisle 3 next week :-) 18:33:58 I'll have a look at the request tomorrow though 18:34:11 just vote in retro and michl can do the rest 18:34:12 ok then I'll send out tmw. :-D 18:34:22 suseROCKs: appreciated 18:34:23 we can revise the process in the next meeting when michl is present okay? 18:34:31 alrighty 18:34:36 henne: +1 18:35:35 next topic? 18:35:38 henne: next topic then? 18:35:41 lol 18:35:51 two dumbasses with the same idea 18:36:03 okay 18:36:04 I read when are we going to give michl a present? 18:36:17 #topic Where do we fail? 18:36:25 1. Improving Board activity visibility 18:36:28 javier_: feel free to do so whenever you want ;) 18:36:41 suseROCKs: thats from you too right? 18:36:43 :-) 18:36:48 want to hear another propsal of mine in regard of board visibility? 18:37:10 no 18:37:20 suseROCKs: I assumed that# 18:37:30 rhorstkoetter, So, why did you ask ? ;) 18:37:32 * rhorstkoetter is silent 18:37:39 ok let's just quickly remind on this topic first, and then go ahead to rhorstkoetter's proposal 18:37:53 AJaeger: optimism 18:38:06 I just wanted to quickly remind that at the last face-to-face board meeting, we agreed that we need to do more to be a visible board. 18:38:26 this should include more blogging and visible interaction by the board. 18:38:50 but now 3 months later, we haven't given this much steam. and I'm curious to see what we can think of that will make this goal achievable. 18:39:10 suseROCKs: organization 18:39:22 something we're not that good in 18:39:34 rhorstkoetter: no, just blog every now and then if something cool or interesting comes up.. ;-) 18:39:40 I mean frankly, we outsourced membership approval process for the purpose of freeing up our time to do more board stuff, and we're doing less :-) 18:39:45 doing it. something we're not good in :) 18:39:49 see, time is our all problem 18:39:50 BUT 18:40:03 we can anyway do this that doesn't consume too much time IMO 18:40:03 maybe a spokesperson? 18:40:08 rhorstkoetter: my two cents. You should explain actually very clearly how the decision process to authorize/use the trademark works, because right now it seems really random. User sends an email...and gets no answer for months ;-) 18:40:30 AlbertoP: whats random with that? :) 18:40:38 AlbertoP: old topic, by responding faster they must deal with that 18:40:41 AlbertoP: that actually is what I tried to accelerate here ;) 18:40:41 AlbertoP: s/random/broken/ 18:40:59 AlbertoP, Well that was part of the last topic, Not sure if you just walked in. And basically we need to clarify the guidelines, as you so well pointed out in last meeting, and then we can make a much more definitive statement about our process 18:41:09 ok, back on-topic 18:41:14 jospoortvliet: sorry my connection is ehm... horrible due to a flooding :( 18:41:38 what I'd propose is to come up with a one-time announcement text we throw out before every board meeting on mondays 18:41:44 two days in advance 18:41:52 yes please do so 18:42:06 explaining the role of the board, the upcoming meeting, link to the agenda and invite the community 18:42:12 post that on news.o.o 18:42:17 please please do 18:42:22 not just into the calendar 18:42:27 I'ddo 18:42:27 rhorstkoetter: you have news.o.o access right? 18:42:38 * suseROCKs just received his new paper shredder and is wondering why there's a warning logo on it to not insert a baby into the shredder... 18:42:43 we need to come up with a text though together 18:42:49 henne: I have 18:43:10 henne, just checked, he indeed has ;) 18:43:13 henne: I'll start this announcement drafting tmw or so at the ml 18:43:20 ok? 18:43:22 rhorstkoetter: can you propose one to board@ and incorporate the feeback and beofre the next meeting you finalize it? 18:43:30 or i can propose something 18:43:31 hope to get as much feedback as possible 18:43:43 henne, wasn't there some discussion in -project about a mailbot to auto remind people of meetings? 18:43:52 henne: I'll do and you all may provide feedback 18:44:01 I have it in my mind already actually 18:44:11 suseROCKs: yes. SJ picked up that AI 18:44:15 but he never delivered 18:44:26 ahh... he's in transit to the United States 18:44:26 next thing would be to make people aware of the log after the meeting, say on fridays 18:44:48 rhorstkoetter, I disagree 18:45:10 kind of a rw meeting minutes as I guess noone has time to write regular minutes currently 18:45:19 s/rw/raw 18:45:28 with the new and very ideal way of doing meeting pages, we can simply say in that one email announcement "Come to the meeting, look at this page for our agenda, and if you can't come to the meeting, you'll see the transcripts/minutes on this page" and be done with it 18:45:28 suseROCKs: you disagree to what? 18:45:47 suseROCKs: ok, this is indeed better 18:45:53 and less work ;) 18:46:04 no need to do minutes rawly either. Bugbot/meetbot is our friend now 18:46:17 #action rhorstkoetter to draft a standard template for meeting announcements 18:46:20 I just think that a blog post is much more recepted then a calendar entry 18:46:36 i.e. gets more attention 18:47:13 other than that we may blog about board task, i.e. the respective assignee like I did for the forums review in January 18:47:15 well that becomes a question, that I was thinking about asking in this morning's project meeting.... 18:47:20 and maybe a link on news.o.o? 18:47:27 or Pavol should have done for memebership outsourcing 18:47:41 Should we be posting meeting announcements as a blog entry on news.o.o? Just for board? For all teams? I think this is a fine line we're pushing though. 18:48:07 every team should handle this for themselves IMO 18:48:09 suseROCKs: that would create to much traffic on nws.o.o 18:48:12 Guys, we discussed on the project mailing list how to announce meetings - and I wrote not to announce every single meeting on news.o.o 18:48:19 jospoortvliet, That's my feeling as well 18:48:23 Also, everything on news.o.o should go to opensuse-announce. 18:48:25 we can take care of board meeting announcements, i.e. I'd take care on Mondays 18:48:37 Do we want to make for the board meetings and the general project meetings an exception? 18:48:51 AJaeger: I'm able to post to @announce? 18:48:52 AJaeger, How about if someone wrote a weekly summary meeting announcement: This week's upcoming meetings are...... ? 18:49:00 or do I need approval 18:49:02 ? 18:49:17 opensuse-announce needs approval, every subscribe can write 18:49:31 Weekly summary meeting would be cool. 18:49:31 AJaeger: self-subscribe? 18:49:52 rhorstkoetter, you need to be subscribed to send emails to opensuse-announce 18:50:02 AJaeger: s/every subscribe can write/everybody/ 18:50:12 you don't anymore 18:50:17 henne, no. Some people don't know how to write. :-) 18:50:35 AJaeger: I understand this. question is, do you need subscriber mail from me or do you subscribe me 18:50:38 can <- :) 18:50:49 rhorstkoetter, I'm lost now. 18:50:50 once I'm subscribed I can post to news.o.o and @announce 18:50:56 alright, so let's quickly like or reject my idea. Should we have a weekly meeting summary blogpost? (Details of how to implement this to be determined) 18:51:24 rhorstkoetter, You should have rights to post to news.o.o already as a board member. 18:51:28 AJaeger: do I need to self-subscribe? or do you (or henne) subscribe me AND approve? 18:51:37 i actually would say: don't overengineer this 18:51:43 suseROCKs: I had long before my board attendance 18:51:55 if we want to announce our meeting on news.o.o now every monday 18:51:56 fine 18:52:06 henne: +1 18:52:08 let 18:52:14 let's move on 18:52:15 lets worry about too much traffic on news.o.o when there actually is too much traffic... 18:52:16 henne, But the quesiton is "our" or "all in one post"? 18:52:27 nowday there is only sascha posting to it 18:52:37 suseROCKs: our 18:52:47 suseROCKs: our. all in one post is the overengineering part ;) 18:52:55 henne: +1 18:53:12 how is it overengineering? All you would have to do is look at the list of events in the events calendar and write it out 18:53:15 let's at least announce project meeting and board meeting together - they are always on the same day 18:53:15 still not sure how to get approval for @announce to do my job properly though 18:53:19 ^^ 18:53:24 anyone who doesn't already have their event submitted, their loss. 18:53:41 yep 18:54:39 it isn't very prominent though 18:54:40 rhorstkoetter, Just mail and one will approve it - eac hsingle email needs approval and the team will handle it 18:54:51 AJaeger: don't we have a project announce already? if so, we may just add the board info to that one 18:55:06 ok, to end confusion I'll post an announcement draft to the ml the next days and I'm waiting for instructions how to get approved for @announce 18:55:09 AJaeger: we'll incorporate it 18:55:09 -project meeting is somehow ours too anyway... 18:55:09 okay next sub-topic? 18:55:09 rhorstkoetter, there's no project IRC announcement 18:55:17 AJaeger: ok, thx. will do 18:55:49 rhorstkoetter, just send the email to opensuse-announce@opensuse.org - that's all you need to do the rest is magic ;) 18:56:17 rhorstkoetter, simple: You write an email to announce@. The moderators of the list look at it and make sure its not spam and press "go" to post it to everyone 18:56:18 #action suseROCKs to post the -project and -board meetings as blog text posts for each Monday of the relevant week 18:56:26 AJaeger: done :) 18:57:05 yaloki, what's not very prominent? 18:57:08 ah wait. it needs to get approved every time I send it not one-time approval? 18:57:11 suseROCKs: agenda 18:57:12 my god 18:58:01 * rhorstkoetter is confused 18:58:01 rhorstkoetter: yep 18:58:01 rhorstkoetter: no worries, it's work for AJaeger :) 18:58:01 yes my son? 18:58:02 guys let's move on 18:58:03 discuss in private if needed 18:58:32 yaloki, or henne or ... 18:58:53 okay the second sub-topic is 18:58:58 yaloki: welcome 18:59:04 Services Documentaion 18:59:17 rhorstkoetter, it doesn't take that long to get approval. I've never had to wait more than say 2 hours. 18:59:18 ok what's next? 18:59:20 thats something where we fail big time in 18:59:31 ok I'm getting a lot of lag here. Are you all experiencing this or is it just me? 18:59:32 henne: as in ? 18:59:40 suseROCKs: same here 18:59:40 suseROCKs: just your uplink 18:59:44 suseROCKs: ok, I'll get used to it 18:59:46 yaloki: your ass 18:59:54 my ass has no lag 18:59:58 * jospoortvliet didn't say that out loud did he? 19:00:18 so what about Services Documentaion 19:00:20 henne: explain services documentation? you mean e.g. OBS API and such ? 19:00:27 henne: or whom to poke if something breaks ? 19:00:47 yeah, what's the toll-free number to call for problems? 19:00:53 yaloki: as in documentation on WHO can HOW get a service setup for opensuse 19:00:57 suseROCKs: http://old-en.opensuse.org/FAIL 19:01:10 henne: "service setup" or "service set up" ? 19:01:15 henne: == "poke darix" ? 19:01:20 yes 19:01:24 yup, true 19:01:26 thats the fact 19:01:31 whom to get in touch with for this or that 19:01:35 luckily we have darix 19:01:35 but thats very bad documentation :) 19:01:46 darix: you suck as a documentation 19:01:47 o_O - it wasnt me 19:01:56 * yaloki puts darix into LaTeX 19:02:11 guys, this is also overengineering. I don't see why we can't simplify this one by making sure jospoortvliet's phone number is in every page on the wiki 19:02:15 yaloki: with my current shape, better dont do that. that looks ugly :p 19:02:24 henne: a wiki page ought to be enough, and we somehow started to do that with the FAIL page 19:02:30 yaloki: btw the easiest thing is ... mailto:admin@opensuse.org 19:02:34 henne: but it's both 1) incomplete and 2) hidden 19:02:38 because then also others can help out 19:02:43 darix: even that isn't all that well known 19:03:03 darix: agreed 19:03:08 darix: but admin@ isn't for everything 19:03:12 e.g. wiki permissions 19:03:13 yaloki: well the fail page is if something fails (cool huh? ;) 19:03:16 email alias 19:03:21 this is about getting something new 19:03:30 henne: partly 19:03:32 i have a question 19:03:44 henne: we also list whom to contact for MLs, IRC nicks, email forwards and such 19:03:48 is this something specific you want to get set up? or more a general discussion? 19:03:57 darix: nothing 19:04:12 darix: we're just saying that we don't have a documentation of whom to poke for what 19:04:27 yaloki: for problems with them yes. 19:04:28 "documentation" as in "just a wiki page" or whatever 19:04:36 yaloki: the good thing is ... the folks at admin@opensuse.org know whom to poke 19:04:42 so routing everything there 19:04:44 is a good idea 19:04:45 imho 19:04:54 yes sure. its not about the routing 19:04:59 henne: so one idea would be make a "Services" page with the various services that are provided, and whom to contact for what 19:04:59 ok 19:05:05 darix: myeah, myeah 19:05:07