12:03:59 #startmeeting 12:03:59 Meeting started Wed Aug 11 12:03:59 2010 UTC. The chair is henne. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 12:03:59 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 12:04:01 #meetingtopic Welcome to the openSUSE Project Meeting! 12:04:04 Welcome to the openSUSE Project Meeting! 12:04:16 And thank you for that warm welcome! 12:04:21 hurrah \o/ 12:04:27 This meeting is meant to discuss the latest developments in and around openSUSE. 12:04:32 The topics for this meeting are: 12:04:44 1. Old Action Items 12:04:44 2. Status Reports 12:04:44 3. Questions & Answers 12:04:44 1. From Wiki 12:04:45 2. From Channel 12:04:50 let roll 12:05:03 #topic Old Action Items 12:05:22 you can find the action items in bugzilla with this link: http://bit.ly/opensuse_action_items 12:05:48 is there any progress? 12:06:22 we only have one left i think 12:06:35 ug #614693 12:06:37 bug #614693 12:06:40 openSUSE bug 614693 in openSUSE.org (Action Items) "ask the strategy team about their plans for after the initial proposals" [Normal,New] https://bugzilla.novell.com/614693 12:06:47 AJaeger? 12:07:21 henne: That's two steps ahead of what we discuss right now - we'll take care of it in time 12:08:36 okay so we can close this as this is not actionable? 12:09:00 or as tracked else where - ok, will do. 12:09:09 I'll add it to the strateg y AIs list 12:09:38 okay 12:10:07 then thats it for AI's 12:10:09 next topic 12:10:15 #topic Status Reports 12:10:21 Teams and individuals send various status reports around. Coolo sends one for the distribution, the OBS team publishes meeting minutes, the boosters their "What are the boosters up to" blogposts, the board has a public meeting and so on and so on. Are there any questions regarding those or do we need to discuss anything in detail? 12:11:49 nothing? 12:12:02 who cares about what you do? 12:12:04 * jospoortvliet ducks 12:12:43 * jospoortvliet knows henne can't leave his place to look him up and beat him with a stick until the meeting is over 12:13:28 jospoortvliet: what are you up to? ;) 12:13:41 wstephenson: trying to pick a fight but henne apparently doesn't care 12:13:49 jospoortvliet: you are funny. you should get your own TV show :P 12:13:50 maybe I should go away and annoy ppl in real life 12:13:58 henne: ok THAT is mean.... 12:14:08 jospoortvliet: henne isnt here. The meetign is usually bot driven 12:14:11 okay so no questions to the status reports 12:14:17 next topic 12:14:24 #topic Questions & Answers 12:14:36 as there are no questions on the wiki... 12:14:54 feel free to come up with any additional topic we need to discuss 12:14:55 * FunkyPenguin would like to ask a question that is partially linked to the previous item 12:15:00 or ask your general question now :) 12:15:19 ok this is in no way an attack on anyone 12:15:24 what channel is this tv show jospoortvliet is on? 12:15:38 but it is a bit of a criticism, but hopefully constructive 12:16:15 is it possible for our thirsty thirteen to be a bit more public in what they're doing? 12:16:32 * wstephenson has an AI to blog about that 12:16:38 yep 12:16:59 thanks 12:17:15 FunkyPenguin: how would that look alike ? 12:17:21 FunkyPenguin: in an ideal world? 12:17:44 dragotin, ah in an ideal world we would have a daily soap opera, adn radio show with magazine adverts 12:18:03 in the real world, i think initially it would mostly be blog posts 12:18:27 but also emails to a wider list, not just -boosters 12:18:41 is biweekly, after every standup meeting, fine? 12:18:47 FunkyPenguin: and the boosters would be the band members and roadies in a community-manager fronted death metal band? 12:18:59 ok Jos is dutch so more likely a techno outfit now. 12:19:06 * dragotin doubts jos is good at death metal 12:19:07 dragotin, that sounds like as good a start as any 12:19:29 wstephenson, i was thinking more of a boyzone style boyband ;) 12:19:32 this is what we want to do and FAIL 12:19:51 henne: I couldn't have said that better ;-( 12:19:54 dragotin: how about this: every week one of the team writes a blog about what has happened over the last week(s) in his/her area and maybe a bit about what cool stuff others are doing 12:20:04 that means each booster has to write a blog every frickin' three months 12:20:12 don't tell me that's too muh work or I have to kick you ;-) 12:20:25 i think part of the issue is the nature of what the boosters are doing 12:20:31 but is there something bloggable every week? 12:20:47 it may not be flashy and full of bling, and as such doesnt appear to be interesting to all 12:20:49 * wstephenson puts down the fuze he's assembling and tries to look innocent 12:20:51 jospoortvliet: I was thinking about that already, yes 12:20:52 suseROCKs: if there isn't they aren't doing anything interesting or fun - and need to find a more fun and interesting job :D 12:20:56 guys, its not about WHAT to do but HOW to not fail doing it 12:20:59 I mean we need to see more blogging, but not blog just for the sake of blogging. There should be real meaning to the content. 12:21:09 henne: ok so you mean it is disipline which is hard? 12:21:32 jospoortvliet: yes 12:22:27 ok here's a suggestion - how about we have a post on WHAT is being tackled, possibly WHY, and if you want to touch on HOW go by the approach of "this is the intended approach" 12:22:31 my problem with that is that I don't think that "the boosters" should be considered so much as a kind of closed team 12:22:52 dragotin: ok, I get that 12:22:59 so the problem is doing the blogging 12:23:03 dragotin, that's exactly the issue - they are atm 12:23:06 I'd rather prefer if the boosters were active in different parts of our community 12:23:06 the problem is not the having topics for blogs, right? 12:23:17 no, of course not 12:23:19 what if we installed live-feed webcams over the boosters' desks so we see what they're doing? Then they don't have to write about it. :-) 12:23:20 ok 12:23:39 suseROCKs: he but you'd have to look at their ugly faces to figure out what they do... 12:23:47 but I see the issue that there is too little visible publically 12:23:59 exactly 12:24:18 seriously, you guys are doing cool stuff (I assume), you should have some enthousiasm about that - and spread it... 12:24:22 maybe have a breakdown sent to -project after the standup meetings 12:24:36 a blog doesn't have to be a book, it can be a ' dude I did this cool thing' or 'dude I have this cool idea' and it's fine... 12:25:09 jospoortvliet, since i can remember the fine SUSE folk regardles of how you wish to spell the geeko are exceptionally modest people 12:25:31 in general i also think that this is not really a problem of the boosters 12:25:35 FunkyPenguin: so they're to modest huh... 12:25:40 yes we can blog about our standup meeting results 12:25:44 yes that would be interesting 12:25:50 and we will again 12:26:02 but what dragotin means is that we usually work inside another opensuse team 12:26:15 like tom and me are currently working "in" the wiki team 12:26:26 so the wiki team needs to blog about what they 12:26:43 others work in other teams 12:26:46 so spread the love, enlighten us to the other teams are doing and where they need help, what issues 12:26:50 aah ok, yes, that makes sense 12:27:04 henne, Ok so define for me now. What is the role of a booster person in relation to other teams? 12:27:07 henne, i agree it isnt just a matter for the boosters 12:27:10 in general, more blogs about what is going on is good - as long as it is vaguely interesting... 12:27:16 suseROCKs: do something 12:27:20 but let's look at it as a form of mentoring 12:27:50 like I did for the openFATE topic last week, with very limited response 12:27:50 we need to lead by example 12:27:54 "do something" as in "work when others aren't" or do something as in "we boost more involvement into this team or activity"? 12:28:24 dragotin, you wont always get a response, which can be *very* frustrating 12:28:35 but consistency is key 12:28:38 suseROCKs: we push teams forward. that can mean anything. from kicking off something to maturing something to phase out something 12:28:51 suseROCKs: this is not a process. its people :) 12:29:26 or we clean up stuff we inherited from former suse times, such as openFATE, nice example 12:29:36 yes 12:29:44 and try to make it interesting for a broader audience 12:29:45 then I guess I have a little confusion about the meaning of "boosters" My perception of its lofty goal seems different than reality 12:30:10 suseROCKs, they "boost" just like nitros does in a car 12:30:13 suseROCKs: can you elaborate? 12:30:21 FunkyPenguin, heh 12:30:31 does that make sense? 12:31:06 dragotin, well by "boost" I really thought it was more about "boosting community awarenenss, involvement, etc." That the boosters team was a path to motivating the community at large 12:31:24 that's jospoortvliet's job ;) 12:31:35 suseROCKs: please read our eam page 12:31:37 team 12:31:41 but now I see it based on what's been said here, is that the boosters are simply the added manpower needed to sustain any given project 12:31:59 suseROCKs: no, they are supposed to improve the infrastructure to make contributing easier 12:32:02 lower the bar for newcomers 12:32:10 mostly focussing on technical solutions to that 12:32:18 help struggeling teams 12:32:33 kick-off technical solutions 12:32:34 so its the nitro thing. Okay 12:32:37 we, as in you and me and other marketing/promo/communicaton ppl should do the more social part of that, guide new contributors etc 12:32:53 and now I need food, it's 1438 and I haven't had lunch yet 12:32:59 so screw ya'll and cu later 12:33:23 jospoortvliet, yes, agreed. And that's what I want to figure out here, how and where we, the marketing team, can help give the boosters some fuel for their nitro-firing. :-) 12:33:36 so in general: Yes we could be better in posting meeting results. Yes all team (inkluding those we work in) could blog more 12:34:17 not only meeting, also activity reports 12:34:35 same for the marketing guys, strategy guys, artwork, wiki, whoever 12:34:42 if anything activity is more important than meeting 12:34:45 We are doing bla and it goes foo. 12:34:49 the meeting is the condensed activity report for the last 2 weeks :) 12:34:55 I think activity is more interesting to talk about than meeting 12:34:58 henne: in our case, yes 12:35:17 dragotin: i talk about our case. the question was about our case... 12:35:54 henne: yes my darling 12:36:21 sheesh, how many people is henne darling to? I'm losing track here 12:36:24 FunkyPenguin: so does that answer your question? :) 12:36:36 wait... what was the question again? :-) 12:36:45 FunkyPenguin: AI take, I will kick more after blogs 12:38:29 hmm there is a lull in the meeting, this is unlike henne to allow such lulls :-) 12:39:04 ok I have a question.... 12:39:23 shoot :) 12:39:30 Now that jospoortvliet has left the room to go get some lunch, can we ask him right now to give us a speech right now? :-) 12:39:45 no, his mouth is full ;-) 12:40:01 dragotin, And his hands are busy to keep that state ;) 12:40:46 I have a question too 12:41:10 ok well... I'd just like to remind everyone that we, the Board, will also be having our meeting today at 18:00 UTC in this channel. 12:41:51 I hear people from (still) outside the community saying that our mailinglist has lots and lots of useless traffic, probably influenced from the strategy discussion 12:42:17 I would be interested if there is a way to calm that down and bring to a kind of result 12:42:31 thats one of the reason I read less of mails these days :-) 12:42:32 I feel that this is not good for the project, honestly# 12:43:03 dragotin: you read olav vitters blog? 12:43:08 dragotin: thats says ppl inside the project too ;) 12:43:21 dragotin: do they mention any specific list? 12:43:39 wstephenson: yes, for example 12:44:02 it's just one guy, with another distribution's culture 12:44:14 I think that has reached a level now were we need to become active 12:44:30 even though I have no good idea how to fix that 12:44:50 wstephenson: that might be true 12:44:51 Olav speaks about "development mailing lists" so that would not apply to project - but I see the point for project as well 12:44:52 such behaviours are easy to enforce on technical lists 12:45:05 how do you police that on a project list though? 12:45:36 its not about policing a list 12:45:54 its about moving the strategy discussion forward in a constructive way 12:46:09 well, we probably can not find a solution for that here 12:46:18 tbh everyone who should be doing that appears to be awol on the strategy threads lately 12:46:22 but I think its an issue 12:46:24 is it vacation time? 12:47:22 dragotin, if you have ideas on how to move the strategy discussion forward, you can reach the team via strategy@opensuse.org 12:47:29 also consider we are a very diverse bunch on the project lists 12:47:41 there will always be friction and useless chatter threads 12:48:21 right now it's a soapbox for anyone who thinks they outgrew opensuse@opensuse.org to share their opinions. 12:48:25 we're not there yet that we can conclude the strategy for good, this is far more involved than expected 12:49:01 AJaeger: but you're still sure that that we're on the right way to come to a good strategy? 12:49:22 wstephenson, and for some of the discussions we should let them die or say something to end them 12:50:01 AJaeger: 1. +1, 2, +0.5 - there are not many discussions that really need terminated. unlike on opensuse@. 12:50:29 i have the same feeling as dragotin 12:50:43 dragotin, I hope that we get their but I sometimes I have doubts 12:51:00 i'm not so sure anymore that this strategy task is doing us ANY good 12:51:00 dragotin, We are taking a lot of the comments to heart on strategy, and that, I believe, is putting us on the right path to a good strategy. But like AJ said, its more complex than we assumed and we're taking a measured approach to it rather than rushing into a strategy just for the sake of a strategy statement 12:51:31 henne / dragotin yes thal you very much :) 12:51:38 dragotin, we'd like to have a discussion face to face during the conference on the strategy - we think that's the best way to move fowrad 12:51:48 suseROCKs: good. i think the process as initially envisages is not sufficient to handle the problem. 12:52:23 yes, and we have to take care that the whole thing does not harm the project overall 12:52:50 dragotin, That's definitely a concern of ours. 12:53:56 ok 12:54:20 i think part of the issue is people not really understanding what -project is used for 12:54:43 AJaeger: i'm concerned that the strategy process design and strategy decision process is too closed to be legitimate 12:54:59 yes there is a lot of traffic re strategy, but i dont think -project is a developer's ml per se 12:55:17 FunkyPenguin: +1 12:55:25 depends on your definition of developer... 12:55:52 developer or contributor? 12:55:59 (yes, back, but mouth full) 12:56:01 its not really relevant if developer list or not, the question is if we do something productive on it 12:56:02 anyway i don't think we will change the perception of people of the -project list in this meeting 12:56:17 true 12:56:18 wstephenson, there was a lot of closed discussion but now we have an open discussion - and we proposed to have a vote in the end. 12:56:30 and if people think that our lists are trolls home, we have a problem 12:56:47 that isnt so true anymore is it? 12:56:48 wstephenson, you cannot make such a discussion completely in the open as you see right now on -project. Do you have a better proposal? 12:56:56 dragotin: but on something like strategy, which is vague and all-compassing, troll-like comments are to be expected 12:57:19 jospoortvliet: sure 12:57:29 dragotin: i don't think that you can take outsiders' comments on our internal community list too seriously. 12:57:36 I don't see how we can avoid "troll" comments. One man's troll, is another man's valid comments. 12:57:46 i would measure success on is our -project community healthy and growing 12:58:01 I would appreciate it if ppl whould start thinking about the strategy proposals and write good analysis about them on the blogs. If you feel strongly about it, let the community know your view. 12:58:04 to us, a microsoft developers' list looks like a bunch of clueless monkeys, right? 12:58:28 jospoortvliet: doesn't that disrupt the -project@ discussion? 12:58:38 most ppl read the planet 12:58:45 besides the discussion should be as wide as possilbe 12:58:47 ble 12:58:52 through many channels 12:58:55 jospoortvliet: yes, but thats just another medium pulled in 12:58:57 not everyone reads -project 12:59:03 dragotin: sure, so? 12:59:14 didn't it have to be more open? 12:59:19 then talk about it everywhere... 12:59:29 jospoortvliet: and it's one where it's harder to have a real discussion, just competing soapboxes 12:59:35 get input from ppl, make them feel heard (by responsing to others, what they said etc) 12:59:35 right 12:59:47 in the end the discussion will be apparently 'won' by whoever gets the most 'Yeah dude' comments. 12:59:53 no 12:59:54 but here's another example of what might be considered troll... Yesterday someone posted to come over to Forums to observe discussions about codecs installation. I assumed there was going to be some kind of meaningful discussion about how to improve the process, but instead when I got there, it was just more harping about codecs without any meaningful solution proposals. 13:00:16 suseROCKs: yes, saw that too 13:00:27 suseROCKs: boah, amazing stuff 13:00:27 wstephenson: that's where voting comes in, that's where the strategy team comes in 13:00:50 the discussion should be wide, everyone should talk and think about it 13:01:01 so you go from a small discussion to wide 13:01:03 very wide 13:01:04 even more wider 13:01:12 then some peeps should start to consolidate it 13:01:16 make it smaller again 13:01:18 and smaller 13:01:19 smaller 13:01:21 smallest 13:01:21 jospoortvliet: yes, and one option should be: "Dont commit on a strategy now, revisit when the community grews older" 13:01:32 jospoortvliet: one option in the voting 13:01:46 vote :D 13:01:46 (smallest being at the opensuse conference) 13:01:59 dragotin: I disagree, not choosing is also a choice 13:02:03 and a bad one at that 13:02:03 dragotin, I would still lvoe to see writtin now what the current status is. 13:02:09 exactly 13:02:16 at least have some image of where we stand 13:02:25 We currently have not written down what we do. 13:02:25 and honestly I think that's what it is coming to anyway 13:02:50 The "Status Quo" proposal tries to do that but I'm not happy with the current wording. 13:03:00 let's put it another way, guys and gals.... 13:03:43 dragotin, I consider already the "Community Statement" a step forward, we've never stated anything that clear... 13:03:52 we constantly hear the other guy is better at this or that. And we don't do a good job of defining what it is that openSUSE is better at. That's really the ultimate goal of the strategy discussions. It isn't to decide how exactly we'll do our job in the future, but to clarify who we are and what our direction is. 13:05:23 from this discussion it's clear there is still a need for a good statement about the why, how and what of the strategy discussion 13:05:37 jospoortvliet: thats correct 13:05:38 cuz if theze dudes aren't convinced yet, I bet many others won't be either 13:06:04 Ok how about this 13:06:14 let me do something this time 13:06:16 but not just me 13:06:29 dragotin, wstephenson, AJaeger you all have strong opinions on this 13:06:34 and that's why we're taking everyone's comments to heart and looking at how we can coalesce everyone's perceptions in a meaningful and feasible way. 13:06:41 you to henne or are you ok with what is happening? 13:07:43 henne: ??? 13:07:50 ok he doesn't like me anymore, fine 13:07:58 i have 13:08:09 I think henne walked off in personal shock, he's never run a meeting in -project this long before :-) 13:08:13 so you think the strategy thing is needed and being done right? 13:08:20 nope 13:08:27 nope to both? 13:08:30 wrong answer 13:08:33 now you have to join 13:08:40 i have stated my opinion from the beginning 13:08:50 i think what we are trying to get to is "image" 13:09:09 so I propose wstephenson dragotin AJaeger henne and me to have a joint meeting in real life (higher bandwith) and come up with a draft explaining why the strategy is needed and how it is being done 13:09:12 and that one you don't define 13:09:17 maybe propose improvmeents but that's beside the goal 13:09:21 only throgh action 13:09:37 then send it to -strategy mailinglist for others to comment, kurt wanted to do such a doc, we can give him a draft this way 13:09:42 jospoortvliet: ok, I will be there 13:09:52 but thats just me :) 13:09:54 henne: I get your arguments let's discuss them 13:10:00 henne: no, they're very valid 13:10:10 so what time? 13:10:16 16:30? 13:10:20 jospoortvliet: as long as the result is just a draft, so that those not able to be present in real life are not excluded. 13:10:26 wstephenson: of course 13:10:29 that's surely the idea 13:10:43 kurt was supposed to write it anyway we'll give it to him 13:10:58 pity llunak is on holiday, he gave the best analysis of what's wrong with the process 13:10:59 I just want to make sure it is convincing for some strong critics, if it convinces you guys it should be OK 13:11:15 wstephenson: yep 13:11:26 llunak had a good write up on the mailinglist 13:11:36 I want more of those, supportive to the effort or not doesn't matter 13:11:45 as long as it's well thought out and open 13:12:17 complaining in private or just complaining on irc isn't enough I demand more efforts ;-) 13:12:24 * jospoortvliet feels like a real dictator now 13:12:31 everyone else has gone quiet 13:12:36 they hate me! 13:12:37 thoughts? 13:12:47 +1 13:12:51 they aren't allowed to think by themselves 13:12:55 oops, that wasn't a votable thing, was it? :-) 13:12:58 well except for suseROCKs he ignores me... 13:13:00 lol 13:13:42 if you know anyone else with strong opinions on the strategy matter tell him/her to join 13:13:44 well here's what I would ask of you guys in that meeting .... 13:14:26 since the purpose of the meeting is to discuss whether the need for a strategy is valid, I would ask that you focus specifically on that and not let the discussion detract into the validity of any specific proposals. 13:14:43 suseROCKs: we'll surely focus on that 13:14:57 suseROCKs: yes, _the_ important point 13:15:00 but we're nerds, we can't stay on topic 13:15:30 now wstephenson henne can I get a 'I'll be there at 16:30' from you? 13:15:39 AJaeger has said he will take care of a meeting room 13:15:46 jospoortvliet: no, pls 13:15:51 jospoortvliet: sooner 13:15:56 (he hasn't but I'm trying to make him do that hehe) 13:15:57 aah 13:15:59 ok so what time? 13:16:04 jospoortvliet: 15:30 :) 13:16:05 suseROCKs: yeah i want to go home again this year. 13:16:06 I just think that in general, because some of the proposals were viewed somewhat alienating, it detracted people from grasping the need for strategy vs. content of any specific strategy. If we can get back to "need" then I think we can get back on track 13:16:14 henne, won't work for me. I can try 16:00 13:16:23 what about tomorrow? 13:16:25 I mean... 13:16:35 yeah it's a bit short notice for me today 13:16:36 yes you're mean 13:16:43 tomorrow is also fine 13:16:47 jospoortvliet: ;-) 13:16:55 lets do this offline 13:17:00 anything else we need to discuss? 13:17:01 ok 13:17:08 beer tonight? 13:17:08 plus i got so little sleep last night that i have gone from 'funny' to 'evil' 13:17:20 wstephenson: don't blame me! 13:17:25 funny? Since when? 13:17:30 blame the small offspring 13:17:31 * wstephenson is still walking funny 13:17:43 ok meeting over... 13:18:04 okidoki 13:18:14 no wait... I have another new question.... 13:18:15 Okay that's it then. If you have more, don't hesitate to bring it up on the appropriate mailinglist. 13:18:21 just kidding! 13:18:28 #info The next project meeting will be in two weeks. Same channel but this time at 16:00 UTC. 13:18:31 Thank you all for participating. Good night and good luck! 13:18:35 suseROCKs: you are disturbing the peace here 13:18:36 #endmeeting