16:00:29 <henne> #startmeeting
16:00:29 <bugbot> Meeting started Wed Jul 28 16:00:29 2010 UTC.  The chair is henne. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:29 <bugbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:34 <henne> #meetingtopic Welcome to the openSUSE Project Meeting!
16:00:38 <henne> Welcome to the openSUSE Project Meeting!
16:00:40 <rtyler> wahoo
16:00:42 <henne> This meeting is meant to discuss the latest developments in and around openSUSE.
16:00:46 <henne> The topics for this meeting are:
16:01:12 <henne> 1. Old Action Items
16:01:12 <henne> 2. Status Reports
16:01:12 <henne> 3. Welcome Jos
16:01:12 <henne> 4. Questions & Answers
16:01:31 <henne> strap on. here we go!
16:01:43 * rtyler locks in
16:01:46 <suseROCKs> no strap ons please, henne
16:01:56 <rtyler> suseROCKs is still sore from last time
16:02:11 <henne> #topic Old Action Items
16:02:28 <henne> you can find them in bugzilla with this url: http://bit.ly/opensuse_action_items
16:02:50 <henne> is there any (significant) progress?
16:03:44 <henne> i take this as a no
16:04:01 <henne> then lets go to the next topic
16:04:09 <henne> #topic Status Reports
16:04:26 <henne> Teams and individuals send various status reports around. Coolo sends one for the distribution, the OBS team publishes meeting minutes, the boosters their "What are the boosters up to" blogposts, the board has a public meeting and so on and so on. Are there any questions regarding those or do we need to discuss anything in detail?
16:04:36 <suseROCKs> umm  hang on dude
16:04:50 <henne> to your strap on?
16:04:51 <suseROCKs> you could give us a chance to read the list before we respond  :-)
16:05:13 <jospoortvliet> i all i wont be here for more than 2 mins will meet ppl at GUADEC soon... and sorry to interrupt!
16:05:30 <rtyler> jospoortvliet: great, that means we can skip the item on the agenda welcoming you ;)
16:05:47 <wstephenson> who is this jos guy anyway? ;)
16:05:51 <jospoortvliet> there should be a h before first i ;-)
16:05:52 <suseROCKs> henne,   Two of those items got inadverntely assigned to me ages ago and shouldn't have been.   And should have been removed.  (Wiki related)
16:06:22 <dragotin> huray huray jos is here!
16:06:31 <jospoortvliet> rtyler yep, see, i am already good for efficiency!
16:06:37 * rtyler applauds
16:06:49 <suseROCKs> hiya jospoortvliet
16:07:04 <henne> suseROCKs: okay
16:07:19 <suseROCKs> henne,  and I seriously have no recollection of the last item which is assigned to me.  :-)
16:08:31 <suseROCKs> henne,   know what?  I think that last item was related to gnome meetings, not project meetings,  so should remove that one too.
16:09:02 <henne> im closing them
16:09:19 <suseROCKs> henne,   so now we have significant progress.  We've reduced from 10 to 7  :-D
16:10:34 <henne> yes thats what i call significant!
16:10:56 <henne> okay now on to status reports
16:11:05 <henne> anything we need to discuss regarding those?
16:11:22 <henne> or is there anyone who want's to do a live report
16:11:29 <FunkyPenguin> just to say, im still encountering issues with MeeGo
16:11:50 <henne> FunkyPenguin: with`?
16:11:57 <FunkyPenguin> things are being looked at, but it is a matter of prioritising work etc
16:12:22 <FunkyPenguin> currently the big blocker is the NetworkManager side of things
16:12:59 <FunkyPenguin> there is also a hiccup with gconf (again) and the web panel (built on top of chromium) is having some issues
16:13:19 <henne> so when are you expecting to have something ready?
16:13:32 <FunkyPenguin> im not even going to guess anymore
16:13:34 <henne> and btw who are we depending on here?
16:13:43 <suseROCKs> FunkyPenguin,   did I read a mention correctly recently that Smeego will be in one of our factory testing releases soon?
16:13:44 <FunkyPenguin> ive been way too optimistic seemingly
16:14:02 <FunkyPenguin> suseROCKs, add an l to that ;)
16:14:05 * rtyler quietly cries
16:14:18 <suseROCKs> I?
16:14:46 <FunkyPenguin> possibly, i need to start the conversation/discussion on -factory
16:14:49 <FunkyPenguin> suseROCKs, Smeegol - SUSE MeeGo Linux
16:15:02 <suseROCKs> ohhh
16:15:19 <henne> FunkyPenguin: i think you should concentrate on 11.3
16:15:30 <suseROCKs> That sounds like something so difficult to pronounce, only a Brit could pull it off.  :-)
16:15:32 <FunkyPenguin> henne, atm bug is assigned to Bin Li (current NM maintainer)
16:15:47 <henne> FunkyPenguin: bug number?
16:15:50 <FunkyPenguin> the other bits glin/joeyli/myself are working on
16:16:16 <FunkyPenguin> henne,  626273
16:16:56 <henne> k
16:17:02 <henne> i try to push alex
16:17:09 <FunkyPenguin> thanks
16:18:01 <henne> okay any other live status reports?
16:19:08 <henne> wstephenson: could you possibly help?
16:20:58 <suseROCKs> tick-tock... tick-tock...
16:21:22 <henne> those darn babies!
16:21:35 <henne> lets skip to the next topic
16:21:53 <henne> now that jos is gone let me say
16:21:58 <henne> #topic welcome jos
16:22:01 <rtyler> heh
16:22:32 <suseROCKs> Everybody do the Geeko Wave
16:22:33 <suseROCKs> G
16:22:35 <suseROCKs> e
16:22:38 <suseROCKs> e
16:22:40 <henne> as you probaly have all read novell hired jos as community manager
16:22:41 <suseROCKs> k
16:22:45 <suseROCKs> o
16:22:47 <suseROCKs> !
16:22:54 <rtyler> henne with the combo-breaker!
16:22:57 <henne> http://news.opensuse.org/2010/07/28/the-opensuse-project-welcomes-jos-poortvliet-as-new-community-manager/
16:23:11 <rtyler> and Aug 1st he'll be officially started yes?
16:23:23 <suseROCKs> That's the plan, stan
16:23:25 <henne> yes
16:23:36 <rtyler> so by aug 2nd all our problems will be solved?
16:23:46 <suseROCKs> no
16:23:50 <henne> by noon aug 1.
16:23:52 <suseROCKs> noontime aug 1
16:23:53 <wstephenson> henne: sec
16:24:05 <suseROCKs> uh oh,   henne and I said same thing.   Hell just froze over
16:24:23 <wstephenson> henne: will see if i can rush to Funky's aid.
16:24:33 <javier_> ah jos, a kde marketing guy :)
16:24:34 <wstephenson> tally ho, over the top, send in reinforcements etc.
16:24:41 <henne> wstephenson: that would be awesome
16:24:43 <wstephenson> javier_: ssh!
16:24:48 <javier_> hehe
16:25:03 <henne> so anything we need to disucss regarding that? :)
16:25:13 <javier_> I worked with him creating the akademy live cd :-)
16:26:15 <wstephenson> i'd like to ask everyone to look past jos' KDE heritage and see a really good marketing and community guy
16:26:28 <wstephenson> with more energy and enthusiasm than the duracell bunny
16:26:32 <rtyler> hahaha
16:26:53 <javier_> hehe
16:27:00 <wstephenson> and consider that from his experience in the KDE community, he really knows how independent communities should work
16:27:04 <henne> wstephenson: just as we look past your dirty KDE history
16:27:31 <wstephenson> henne: is there blood on these hands?
16:27:41 <suseROCKs> +1 to wstephenson     It should be made clear that during our interview with Jos, he stated he supports our dual-Desktop environment and does not have an agenda of pushing KDE.    I appreciated his comments about the community as a whole.
16:28:33 <henne> okay anything else?
16:29:34 <wstephenson> jzb: don't forget to deliver your "from #1 to #2" letter now ;)
16:29:54 <henne> then lets move on to
16:29:55 <jzb> indeed
16:29:56 <javier_> where's jos? we welcome him and he's not here?
16:30:05 <rtyler> javier_: his battery is running low at GUADEC
16:30:07 <wstephenson> he's community building at guadec
16:30:15 <javier_> ah I see
16:30:17 <javier_> okis
16:30:19 <wstephenson> rtyler: you think his shields are up or something? ;)
16:30:22 <henne> a busy bee indeed
16:30:58 <henne> #topic Questions and
16:31:04 <henne> #undo
16:31:04 <bugbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0x17044d0>
16:31:06 <henne> #topic Questions and Answers
16:31:17 <henne> there are no questions on the wiki page
16:31:30 <henne> so are there any additional topics we need to discuss?
16:31:36 <henne> any questions we might answer?
16:31:36 <suseROCKs> I didn't put any questions on the wiki page but I have a quesiton about the wiki itself.  :-)
16:31:50 <henne> shoot :)
16:32:14 <suseROCKs> So I'm hearing various comments out there about the new wiki, and certainly its understandable that with any change comes some form of disruption and dissatisfaction
16:32:59 <suseROCKs> But I'm concerned about some of those too.   Search issues, pages not completely migrated yet, confusion about where to place things...   How will these issues be addressed?     Seems there's a rather high bar here.
16:33:34 <henne> education? :)
16:33:59 <henne> as with all new things...
16:34:08 <suseROCKs> Look at me for example, I had to ask around for a day or so before getting an answer from you about proper placement on the wiki
16:34:20 <prusnak> well, lots of redirects are missing/broken
16:34:26 <prusnak> search does not look into openSUSE: namespace
16:34:43 <prusnak> these two are affecting a lot of people
16:35:16 <suseROCKs> and the timing couldn't be worse imo  with the release of 11.3 and people generally going to the wiki to find answers.
16:35:19 <henne> suseROCKs: so what do you suggest?
16:35:40 <suseROCKs> but all of that we have to move beyond, no point in criticism.   My question centers on how can we ease this all going forth.
16:35:45 <henne> suseROCKs: we blogged, we educate individuals
16:36:12 <prusnak> henne: how about adding openSUSE NS to search by default ?
16:36:18 <prusnak> or is this not wanted ?
16:36:39 <henne> prusnak: why would we? we explicitely left it out because we want to focus on the consumers by default
16:37:46 <prusnak> i had a good usecase yesterday
16:37:48 <henne> currently we are trying to come up with a concept to integrate google search
16:37:54 <michl> henne: but what I experience myself and read on ml sound to me that this is not the perfect solution
16:37:56 <prusnak> can't recall today
16:38:17 <henne> michl: its not a solution its a decision :)
16:38:26 <suseROCKs> I struggled yesterday searching for the logos on the new wiki until Rajko helped me find it
16:38:35 <michl> maybe even a decision should get a 2nd thought
16:38:54 <henne> without new arguments?
16:39:21 <henne> i mean. yes we turned off search for the project namespace
16:39:24 <suseROCKs> henne,   isn't the fact that some of us are having trouble finding and navigating and understanding things an argument?
16:39:34 <michl> if the argument: "users don't get it" isn't enough - me wonders
16:39:39 <henne> and yes that means people need to do something differently now
16:40:17 <henne> michl: users?
16:40:35 <henne> we explicitely tried what we try with the strategy and stuff
16:40:44 <michl> henne: people visting our wiki and searching for stuff
16:40:45 <henne> to focus
16:41:00 <henne> and we focus on the consumers of our distribution
16:41:06 <suseROCKs> henne,    one other thing...   the way you're responding creates a defensive situation here.    I am not asking you to revert or stop what you're doing but to see if we can further find some middle ground to achieve your goals but not make visitors to the wiki feel alienated.  And many feel tht way now
16:41:25 <michl> suseROCKs: +1
16:41:37 <henne> suseROCKs: you dont. michl does :)
16:41:51 <henne> so the question is
16:41:53 <suseROCKs> look  maybe this is too big of a discussion for the project meeting itself and another time should be focused on wiki discussion (here in -project channel)
16:42:15 <henne> no this is perfect for the project meeting i think
16:42:28 <suseROCKs> ok
16:42:40 <henne> and i would like to discuss it
16:42:54 <henne> so our (wiki team) focus on consumer wrong?
16:43:00 <suseROCKs> ok  but only on the condition we're not all acting defensively when we respond
16:43:19 <henne> should we give it up and make it easier for contributors to find stuff?
16:43:42 <henne> thats the question. so far i only hear: i cant find shit anymore so we need to change it
16:43:50 <suseROCKs> for "finding stuff"  doesn't that apply to both consumers and contributors?   How are you making the differentiation in this context?
16:44:14 <henne> suseROCKs: by content seperation
16:44:23 <henne> suseROCKs: default is for consumers
16:44:27 <tigerfoot> javier_: ping can we open a private session (about ati)
16:44:33 <michl> henne: maybe improve is the better expression here then change - on one wants to change it
16:44:41 <henne> suseROCKs: everybody else has to go through more hoops
16:45:10 <suseROCKs> henne,   and I don't object to that.   That happens with any change out there in the real world.
16:45:20 <henne> yep
16:45:42 <suseROCKs> but if you're hearing "i can't find shit"  shouldn't that be a major concern?
16:45:46 * wstephenson is out - mail with any more AIs
16:45:55 <javier_> tigerfoot: pong, sure
16:46:19 <henne> suseROCKs: depends right?
16:46:36 * suseROCKs keeps an open mind and asks... how does it depend?
16:47:00 <henne> on what which people try to find
16:47:35 <suseROCKs> shouldn't you be able to find anything you need to find on a wiki?
16:47:52 <henne> if you (contributor) say you cant find logos (promo material, contributor stuff) anymore
16:48:06 <henne> its to be expected when we shift the focus to consumers by default
16:48:13 <henne> right?
16:48:17 <michl> especially in a time where people are used to search engines finding everything
16:48:28 <suseROCKs> but consumers themselves may want to find the logo too.
16:48:37 <henne> suseROCKs: why?
16:49:07 <suseROCKs> maybe they love openSUSE so much (it does happen ya know? ;-) ) that they want to download the logo and create their own special wallpaper or something
16:49:14 <henne> thats the thing with focus guys...
16:49:19 <henne> it leaves other stuff out
16:49:24 <suseROCKs> I mean I've downloaded logos for things even if I'm not associated with the project
16:49:39 <suseROCKs> or what if I'm a member of the media and need to put the logo into my article when I'm writing about openSUSE?
16:49:46 <michl> henne: but it leaves pretty important stuff out, eg. conference, ambassador etc.
16:50:14 <henne> sorry  i don't get it
16:50:19 <suseROCKs> It's too myopic to say only this type of user will want this piece of information.
16:50:45 <henne> what is your argument? that we should focus on consumers but should show them ambassador pages?
16:51:09 <suseROCKs> consumers eventuall (hopefully) become contributors.
16:51:29 <michl> henne: if someone searches for ambassadors why not showing him the ambassador page ?
16:51:44 <michl> currently a "not found" or similar is the result
16:52:10 <michl> and he need to spend time in reading and getting it that he needs to adjust the search
16:52:23 <michl> this is pretty untypically nowadays - at least imo
16:52:43 <suseROCKs> that's a good point about ambassadors.  A consumer may wish to contact an ambassador.
16:53:11 <henne> then maybe ambassadors need to go into the main namespace which is searched by default
16:53:15 <henne> i don't know.
16:53:21 <prusnak> yes! i remember
16:53:31 <prusnak> i was looking for "launch party" in the wiki
16:53:36 <suseROCKs> quiet everybody...  let prusnak remember1
16:53:36 <henne> the point is: consumers searching on the old wiki wont find ANY usefull information
16:53:51 <prusnak> and I failed
16:53:51 <henne> including openSUSE: in the default search would just do that
16:54:07 <michl> henne: but you need to know
16:54:21 <michl> henne: and you need to select out of 10 or so choices
16:54:39 <suseROCKs> henne,  I don't think anyone disputes that there were issues with the old wiki.  I think what we're trying to ask is... did we solve or improve from the old wiki, and too many people are unsure of that right now.
16:55:01 <michl> my point is people expect from  a search on a page nowadays more
16:55:15 <michl> what's not found there in first place isn't there
16:55:40 <henne> but we can only use whats there right?
16:56:04 <suseROCKs> henne,   I honestly don't understand that question.
16:56:05 <henne> the solution can't be to just go back or?
16:56:20 <henne> suseROCKs: i mean the search of mediawiki
16:56:26 <michl> henne: again, no one wants to go back !!!
16:56:40 <henne> michl: so what is your proposal? :)
16:56:43 <suseROCKs> so there are failings with mediawiki search capabilities?
16:56:45 <henne> we have mediawiki
16:56:48 <henne> we have mediawiki search
16:56:59 <henne> we focus on consumers and leave out contributor stuff
16:57:10 <henne> now you come :)
16:57:11 <michl> henne: I can observe that there is an issue but I don't have the solution
16:57:22 <henne> okay
16:57:40 * suseROCKs wonders now if we should have had two separate instances.  one focusing on consumers and one focusing on contributors.  Sometimes in the past on the old wiki I felt that the two were too mixed together
16:58:06 <michl> suseROCKs: arrgh - no, not two seperate instances
16:58:10 <henne> we are epxerimenting with google search
16:58:10 <michl> don't even think about
16:58:19 <henne> but that also has issues
16:58:22 <suseROCKs> michl,   As i said  'sometimes"  :-)
16:58:38 <henne> as you can see it's not an easy problem
16:58:45 <suseROCKs> michl,  for example, if someone is searching for a fix to a GNOME problem, they don't need to encounter all kinds of team-related stuff.
16:58:46 * cboltz wonders if mediawiki supports something like "search priorities" - main and portal namespace first in the results, followed by openSUSE
16:58:57 <henne> and the solution is not include openSUSE: (or SDB:) into the default search
16:59:14 <henne> cboltz: nope
16:59:41 <cboltz> why not? Users could just click the top result (as now)
16:59:53 <suseROCKs> henne,   so tell us (so we might calm down a bit) what this google search plugin will bring us
17:00:08 <cboltz> and the results below are just an extra bonus for those that think that main namespace isn't enough ;-)
17:00:31 <henne> suseROCKs: the results you get with site:en.opensuse.org
17:00:37 <cboltz> suseROCKs: it will search all namespaces *g,d&r*
17:00:52 <suseROCKs> depending on how quickly Google indexes the site?
17:01:16 <henne> suseROCKs: yes. monthly or faster if you push a sitemap
17:01:33 <suseROCKs> Google indexes openSUSE sites pretty quickly, I can tell you that much
17:02:03 <suseROCKs> though not sure if that is applied to our wiki as much as it is applied to other sites, like news.o.o which Google indexes almost instantly
17:02:23 <henne> yah
17:02:41 <henne> there is no easy solution i fear
17:02:48 <henne> wikipedia is suffering from the same
17:02:50 <suseROCKs> I got my google alert for michl's post this moring like about 5 mins after posting.
17:03:18 <michl> suseROCKs: but that's not because of the content that's because of me ;-)
17:03:32 <henne> suseROCKs: thats the blog part. it operates difdferently from the web-age part :)
17:03:39 <suseROCKs> right
17:03:51 <suseROCKs> that's why I said I don't know how quickly the wiki gets indexed.
17:04:14 <henne> anyway. we are looking into making the search better
17:04:19 <suseROCKs> so we've identified taht we have issues with search capabilities and no real quick solution
17:04:22 <henne> but there is no real solution in sight
17:04:30 <henne> right
17:04:47 <suseROCKs> now the other issue (at least for me) is how to make it easy to understand where to go to place new articles
17:05:22 <henne> i would like to know that too
17:05:36 <henne> i mean we have awesome documentation linked from the frontpage
17:05:38 <henne> we blogged
17:05:45 <henne> we tell individual
17:05:45 <henne> s
17:05:52 <henne> what more do you think can we do?
17:06:01 <suseROCKs> blogging won't cut it  because not everyone who contributes an article reads the blogs.   And blogs fly by too quickly
17:06:02 <AlbertoP> accept they are out of place :)
17:06:13 <suseROCKs> What you wrote 2 weeks ago won't reach the new user who comes by today.
17:06:33 <henne> AlbertoP: we do that too. thats the main entry point on educatin individuals for us :)
17:06:37 <AlbertoP> people won't read pages and pages of rules and instructions, even if they are motivated...they work for free :)
17:07:10 <henne> AlbertoP: i mean i did it with you right? :)
17:07:15 <suseROCKs> henne,   perhaps a click point at the top of every page that says something like "Post an Article" or "Posting Guidelines"   Not just at the front page.  I rarely ever go to the front page
17:07:16 <AlbertoP> yep
17:08:39 <henne> suseROCKs: would the sidebar work for that too?
17:08:52 <suseROCKs> henne,   Sure
17:09:16 <suseROCKs> as long as its there and prominent no matter where you land in the wiki  :-)
17:10:06 <henne> okay
17:10:22 <henne> i guess we can do that
17:10:32 <suseROCKs> hmm....  we actually came up with a solution??
17:10:59 <henne> i don't think it will make a big difference...
17:11:04 <henne> but lets try :
17:11:07 <henne> :
17:11:23 <henne> i think this needs something else entirely
17:11:24 <henne> time
17:11:33 <suseROCKs> the third issue that I see is pages not migrated.  But that's clearly a manpower issue and not much we can do except hope and wait for everyone to finish their tasks
17:11:34 <henne> time for people to adapt
17:12:17 <henne> i mean we had a everything-goes style wiki
17:12:32 <henne> and now "all of the sudden" we have rules
17:12:40 <henne> that takes time to adapt to
17:12:43 <suseROCKs> I agree.  that caused a problem.  And I do appreciate the issues the wiki team had to deal with
17:13:01 <suseROCKs> that = "everything-goes"
17:13:44 <henne> and i can tell you that we already now have more quality in the contributions
17:13:54 <henne> and more people editing the wiki
17:14:03 <suseROCKs> so hey... does anyone else have questions about the wiki  or even other questions?  If not, I think henne  and I would love to stretch our legs before the board meeting in 45 mins
17:14:27 <michl> suseROCKs: damn 45 mins, I already need 30 to cycle home
17:14:35 <suseROCKs> get cycling dude!
17:15:07 <henne> i think i have one point to say still
17:15:26 <henne> i find the style and the tone in which the wiki switch gets discussed VERY irritating
17:15:28 <suseROCKs> henne,   You're not going to talk about my body odor again, are you?
17:16:01 <suseROCKs> henne,   even in today's meeting now?
17:16:11 <henne> I mean I'm very deeply rooted in this project
17:16:13 <michl> henne: in general, here, ?
17:16:28 <henne> and i will think twice to do something like that again
17:16:55 <suseROCKs> henne,   In general, its always the way that people who have negative reactions will speak the loudest and keep their foot in their mouths.   That's to be expected everywhere.
17:17:09 <suseROCKs> But in today's meeting, I hope that at least I came at this discussion in an objective way
17:17:30 <henne> michl: in general
17:17:46 <henne> suseROCKs: yes but what do you think will guys like tim or dominian take away from this?
17:17:58 <henne> those two are new awesome contributors
17:18:01 <michl> henne: ya, i saw some the more unfriendly and rude statements made
17:18:46 <henne> i can take this. i'll manage
17:18:51 <suseROCKs> henne,   how do you and I take away from this when I constantly hear accusations that we board are making decisions behind closed doors when a) everything we do is in public  b) we rarely ever see each other in non public situations?
17:19:38 <henne> you and i are oldtimers
17:19:52 <henne> we _know_ and _experienced_ that working here is rewarding
17:19:55 <suseROCKs> people who wish to wear tin foil hats are dead set on assuming the worst in everything.   And we have to take it and move on.   Tim and dominian have to take that with a grain of salt.  It's the dark side of public living in open source but it exists.
17:20:27 <suseROCKs> you, henne  as a team member then have an  obligation to comfort and support them so they understand.  And down the line they'll do the same for newcomers
17:20:36 <henne> i have to disagree. i don't think we can continue like that
17:21:05 <henne> but maybe this si something for the board meeting later
17:21:34 <AlbertoP> contributing for suse rewarding? well, I beg to differ, deeply :)
17:22:27 <henne> okay lets wrap this up
17:22:58 * suseROCKs assumes michl  is already cycling
17:23:11 <michl> not yet
17:23:53 <henne> anything else we need to discuss?
17:24:28 <suseROCKs> I think we ran everyone else off  :-)
17:24:31 <henne> Okay that's it then. If you have more, don't hesitate to bring it up on the appropriate mailinglist.
17:24:34 <henne> #info The next project meeting will be in two weeks. Same channel but this time at 12:00 UTC.
17:24:38 <henne> Thank you all for participating. Good night and good luck!
17:24:42 <henne> #endmeeting