18:00:48 #startmeeting 18:00:48 Meeting started Wed Jun 2 18:00:48 2010 UTC. The chair is henne. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:48 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:00:51 yaloki: prusnaks article is not shown 18:00:54 hola 18:01:06 #meetingtopic openSUSE Board Meeting 18:01:26 yaloki: AJaeger: darix told me the cron issue is solved, but it does not seem to be fixed 18:01:29 Welcome to the openSUSE Board Meeting! 18:01:35 let's take it off meeting and discuss tomorrow ... 18:01:47 so we are indeed having a meeting now... /me scratches head 18:02:00 suseROCKs: why not? 18:02:21 henne, just confused, I thought we said our next meeting was on 16th 18:02:32 no 18:02:45 so I stopped my other plans for this hour because that's the way I am... 100% dedicated to openSUSE! :-) 18:02:54 we talked about when to add the "growing ocmmunity" agenda item 18:03:11 oic 18:03:38 so the agenda for this meeting is: 18:04:03 1. openSUSE Foundation 18:04:04 2. Strategy Discussion 18:04:04 3. Growing the Community 18:04:05 1. Our Problems 18:04:05 1. Mirror mails on admin@opensuse.org 18:04:06 4. Trademark Approvals 18:04:08 5. Questions & Answers 18:04:11 1. From Wiki (see questions section below) 18:04:13 2. From Channel 18:04:27 #chair yaloki suseROCKs prusnak rhorstkoetter michl 18:04:27 Current chairs: henne michl prusnak rhorstkoetter suseROCKs yaloki 18:04:31 always impressed how fast henne types. 18:04:54 * henne types with his mouse 18:05:03 #topic openSUSE Foundation 18:05:23 didn't michl say he wanted to share this document? 18:05:30 did i miss it? 18:05:32 I have not read the documentation on the Foundation yet. Did anything unusual jump out from anyone else? 18:05:34 henne: only internally 18:05:41 henne: with the board, not publicly 18:05:47 yes 18:05:52 henne, he handed printouts to us on Sat. 18:05:53 but where did he share it? 18:05:54 or *cough* not at all *cough* 18:06:03 ah saturday! 18:06:12 sooo 18:06:18 so i'm excluded because i dont play with you on weekends! 18:06:19 he's not allowed to email it ot us :-) 18:06:24 *sniff* 18:06:35 alright. i twist his arm on monday 18:06:46 be gentle! 18:06:46 state of things right now is that michl is going to poke Novell upmost management in order to see whether they would sponsor us for creating the foundation 18:06:59 as it involves a few costs (lawyer to create the status, etc..) 18:07:05 okay so nothing moved since friday... 18:07:14 if yes, cool, if not, we'll find another way 18:07:36 true 18:07:43 so things regarding the foundation are currently a bit on hold as we're waiting for that piece of information 18:07:58 but in any case, for those reading us now, we are determined to move this forward as quickly as humanly possible. 18:08:00 and.. err.. I don't know actually, there hasn't been any other progress apart from that 18:08:33 yeah, we've been quite busy with the strategy these days so we'll definitely have to pick up on the foundation as well 18:08:47 either way, with novell's sponsoring of costs or not, we'll have it done 18:08:59 questions ? remarks ? 18:09:08 anyone awake/paying attention anyway? :) 18:09:17 no 18:09:21 no 18:09:24 that's what I thought :) 18:09:28 maybe 18:09:48 but basically, we still have to decide whether it'll be in the US or in .de 18:10:18 i got the feeling that it doesn't matter for novell 18:10:19 yes thats the next step 18:10:24 and then define the status, with the help of a lawyer or not (rhorstkoetter has some background in it so that would do as well) 18:10:35 so we can flip a coin or decide in board 18:10:42 (or "some" background, ironically, as that's what he's studying right now :)) 18:10:54 prusnak: right, it's our call anyway 18:10:59 prusnak: I suppose you mean US vs DE 18:11:03 yes 18:11:09 yup, our call 18:11:26 we have a pretty good picture of the framework as it is in germany 18:11:41 but not really up-to-date regarding a non-for-profit in the US 18:11:43 the only significant difference I saw between the two countries, based on past discussions here, is that if we go .de we have to re-vote all board members to the new Foundation 18:11:59 both aren't posible? 18:12:00 whereas in US, you don't have to have an election. You can just hand-pick for the starting board. 18:12:01 right, you must have an initial vote 18:12:08 yes, we have a lot of people to "mentor" us if we go for .DE 18:12:08 Siju: means costs x 2 18:12:18 Siju: maybe, at some point in the future, if it's highly successful :) 18:12:36 may i state this gain: i don't want to be part of the e.v.... 18:12:43 board 18:12:54 restate please? 18:12:56 right 18:12:57 henne: yes, we remember it 18:13:02 k :) 18:13:07 i don't remember that 18:13:08 henne: why? 18:13:08 so it will not automatically be foundation board == opensuse board 18:13:15 suseROCKs: henne does not want to participate in e.V. nor in 501c3 18:13:18 you're saying if we go with e.V, you don't want to be involved anymore? 18:13:28 suseROCKs: he does not want to be on the board of a NFP 18:13:34 suseROCKs: no i'm saying that i don't want to be in the foundation 18:13:35 oh 18:13:40 so we'll have to throw election for both cases 18:13:45 suseROCKs: not as board member 18:13:49 I see 18:13:50 prusnak: yep 18:13:59 henne, you mean you don't want an opportunity to skim funds? ;-) 18:14:24 suseROCKs: yeah exactly :) 18:14:33 may I ask a question? 18:14:34 suseROCKs: he has enough already from sending spam emails in late 90s 18:14:41 anyhow, IIRC we agreed that at some point, if we don't manage to get ahold of more information regarding a NFP in the US, we'll simply go for an e.V. (NFP in germany) 18:14:48 nah it's just that spreading funds and stuff is not what i want to do 18:15:01 wolfiR: just ask 18:15:03 we poked around on the foundations mailing list at freedesktop.org but didn't get any usable feedback 18:15:06 yaloki: yes we did :) 18:15:23 who will be members of the e.V. the openSUSE members or another group? 18:15:24 henne: actually, I wonder whether we're not there yet already heh 18:15:26 yaloki: well "it doesnt matter" was what i took away 18:15:33 wolfiR: another group, we'll have elections 18:15:43 wolfiR: of course, people could be on both 18:15:49 yaloki: not the board, the members 18:15:54 wolfiR: I don't see any reason to forbid having a person on both 18:15:57 wolfiR: if we go for e.v. at least some have to physical present and the initial meeting and stuff 18:16:05 7 afaik 18:16:08 wolfiR: we'll have to sort that out with the statuses 18:16:14 wolfiR: right 18:16:22 brb 18:16:42 an e.V. requires having 7 members, from which the board is elected, iirc 18:17:10 if we're talking about general members, we can easily assume all openSUSE Community Members are also members of the Foundation 18:17:16 yaloki u need 7 ppl to found one 18:17:16 how about setting a deadline ? (again) 18:17:22 wolfiR: we haven't taken care of those details yet -- we do have that information somewhere as rupert informed us, but not worked out yet 18:17:26 gnokii: yep 18:17:31 suseROCKs: no 18:17:32 e.g. when there is not a strong indication we should not go for e.V. until end of June 18:17:34 suseROCKs: probably not 18:17:36 we'll start it 18:17:41 prusnak, you decide if you want to tell Ron Hovsepian to adhere to a deadline to review the material. :-) 18:17:41 suseROCKs: because you need to keep lists of members 18:17:45 and I prefer an e.V there would be new elections 18:18:03 gnokii: as we just said, with either option (US or DE), we will have elections 18:18:07 suseROCKs: deadline for us to decide whether it's e.V or 501c3 18:18:18 but only members are allowed to vote 18:18:30 so it's important detail who will be a member 18:18:37 yeah 18:18:40 for the acceptance in the community 18:18:41 there are a few tricks though 18:19:03 did you ask the kde dudes why they chose e.v. now? (I would guess they had a reason) 18:19:03 there are a few ways to avoid having to keep track of a list of 500 members and have them vote nevertheless 18:19:31 I also prefer the e.V. option 18:19:31 bitshuffler: we tried to get ahold of cschumacher but never managed to get into a meeting with him, at least up to now 18:19:45 javier_, may I ask your opinion why? 18:19:56 bitshuffler: that being said, for KDE I would assume that it was a natural choice just because it's a very germany-centric project in terms of contributors 18:20:41 we don't really expect any significant difference between an e.V. (DE) and a 501c3 (USA) though 18:21:01 as an example, it doesn't bind nationalities in any way 18:21:12 i.e. you don't have to be german to be in a german e.V., and the same accounts for a 501c3 18:21:13 right, the initial review by Alan Clark showed no difference from a legal standpoint significantly between eV and 501c3 18:21:21 suseROCKs: yep 18:22:03 but I'm still curious from a community perspective why javier_ and possibly others prefer german eV. That preference could have a significant impact on support and revenues etc. 18:22:13 personally, I've put forward my preference for an e.V. based on the fact that the risk/potential for patent litigations in court is higher in the US than in .de 18:22:14 suseROCKs: because of the location mainly 18:22:17 suseROCKs: i guess it is just a personal feeling 18:22:27 you live in europe - eV is closer to your "heart" 18:22:31 and vice versa 18:22:50 that's my assumption as well, prusnak. There seems to be an affinity, which is fine 18:22:56 it probably implies more than that 18:23:04 yeah, there is nothing really decisive for either option at this point 18:23:08 EU laws vs US laws perhaps? 18:23:13 suseROCKs: easy, germany has less ridiculous laws & suing practices (at least a bit) 18:23:16 we do have some more background information and available expertise for an e.V. at this point 18:23:22 bitshuffler: yeah, as I said above 18:23:29 javier_: what EU laws? :) 18:23:35 but as we've seen also from our market research, we have openSUSE strong presence in Central Europe. So the affinity is already there, whereas we need to grow it elsewhere. 18:23:51 suseROCKs: that is most probably the case, yes 18:23:56 question: do we still need to discuss whether it's eV or 501c3? 18:23:58 but I'd prefer not to use the Foundation's location as an impetus for growth. Just what is most fiscally/legally sound 18:24:04 do we want to throw voting? 18:24:10 prusnak: no. especially not re-discuss 18:24:31 yaloki: I'm not a lawyer, but I guess it's easier for an European company to donate to a eV 18:24:32 prusnak, no I think we're done discussing for the time being and our primary wait-and-hold right now is to hear back from Novell ELC 18:24:35 I'd just say e.V. and be done with it (the choice) 18:24:44 javier_: it's not, not at this point at least 18:24:56 so let me ask again: how about agreeing that if there are no strong indications we should not go for eV until end of june for example , just settle for this option 18:25:12 prusnak: sounds fine, don't know whether michl will have an answer until then 18:25:17 (nor whether it will be relevant or not) 18:25:19 yaloki: and perhaps it means more fiscal benefits... I don't know 18:25:24 * henne thinks its a nice deadline 18:25:27 javier_: no 18:25:37 * yaloki thinks so too 18:25:39 suseROCKs? 18:25:52 might be worth waiting for a response on michl's request? 18:26:08 we'll have to wait for that anyway before we can engage 18:26:14 lets just decide now. michl can break it when he needs to :) 18:26:17 yes, let's take the opportunity for what will possibly be the only breathing time we have before we hit the ground running on foundation paperwork, etc. 18:26:19 I'd much prefer to have the monies to go through a lawyer to set it up 18:26:22 this is not about life and death 18:26:25 * michl not here 18:26:25 but which request? 18:26:33 michl: *cough* none *cough* 18:26:50 michl: if we don't get enough input on 501c3 by end of june we do an e.v. 18:26:51 funny how none of the board members who said they can't make it to today's meeting are here now. 18:27:11 suseROCKs: we love openSUSE 150% 18:27:20 ok, does anyone disagree on having that deadline ? 18:27:23 henne, when michl and i talked to Alan, we discussed 501c3 vs. e.V. and we agreed generally if the communtiy wants e.V. let's just go with that. 18:27:23 suseROCKs: its your irresistable charm 18:27:29 +1 from me for deadline end of june 18:27:37 +1 from me :) 18:27:41 +1 18:27:43 But in last meeting, Rupert insisted we still do more analysis on 501c3. i prefer not to, and just go with e.V and be done with it. 18:27:44 +1 from my mom 18:27:56 ok, decided then 18:28:09 (enough for a quorum at least ;)) 18:28:15 so please do not open this topic for 4 weeks, thanks :) 18:28:18 ur are all looks like politicians only talking 18:28:24 #agreed if we don't get enough input on 501c3 by end of june we do an e.v. 18:28:26 any more questions/remarks? or should we go on with the next item ? 18:28:35 gnokii: it's called "thinking" 18:28:51 gnokii, is there something important we're not addressing that you feel we need to address? 18:29:13 henne: k 18:29:24 yaloki no its called duck for decisions 18:29:31 he's just rambling 18:29:38 umm... I thought we just made a decision? 18:29:41 lets move on 18:29:51 #topic Strategy Discussion 18:30:20 there was a blog post on news.o.o (and planet) describing what we did so far 18:30:35 any questions/remarks regarding that ? 18:30:50 and there will be another exhaustive email starting discussion on Monday 18:31:05 are you really serious about the "base for derivatives" part since that sounds too much like buntu, kbuntu, xbuntu, whateverbuntu ~ as in a waste of time? 18:31:07 how do you plan to do that? 18:31:18 just discuss on opensuse-project? 18:31:20 bitshuffler: no, it's very different 18:31:27 wait for complete proposal 18:31:34 henne: discuss on project ML _AND_ forums 18:32:03 (and yes, we're aware of the pain it induces) 18:32:09 you should make an effort to keep it readable 18:32:09 AJ and me will collect ideas on wiki 18:32:20 (both from ML and forums) 18:32:24 but as we can't manage to get everyone on a single media.. *sigh* 18:32:47 henne, we will try but we have agreed that while we will monitor and attempt to keep the discussion on track, we will not influence the general community discussion. 18:32:59 bitshuffler: We have three different proposals - we don't want all three of them. so, wait for the full proposal and then let's see which one is the best 18:33:07 suseROCKs: i mean more hands on stuff 18:33:09 It is our desire that our proposal will be completely vetted and endorsed by the community in order for it to be successful. 18:33:15 like splitting very long mails into smaller ones 18:33:16 suseROCKs: We will take part in the discussion. 18:33:31 or tell ml-admin when to stop a thread 18:33:36 bitshuffler: also, we wanted to present several different options for people to choose from and/or comment on, adapt 18:33:45 there are things we can do to make this less pain 18:33:48 do we actually have an ml-admin? Who is he? 18:34:00 suseROCKs: henne 18:34:07 suseROCKs: ranjid from india 18:34:07 henne: well, yes, we'll do our best to be present and do the housekeeping too 18:34:09 ooooh so that's what he does! :-) 18:34:36 yaloki: i think its very important 18:34:44 henne: yep 18:34:49 and i have very nice experience with that with the factory opening 18:34:58 we have no doubts the discussion will be lively and fruitful 18:35:28 i can write a summary to strategy 18:35:35 are you interested? 18:35:39 sure 18:35:51 henne: a summary of what? rules for a productive email discussion? :) 18:35:53 but shouldn't rahjid be writing that summary? 18:36:17 "rules of engagement" ^^ 18:36:20 yaloki: well rules how to keep the noise down by simple technical measures :) 18:36:28 henne: yes, please :) 18:36:31 k 18:36:45 henne: we should include that in the initial mail that'll open up the discussion 18:37:05 its more rules about your initial mail ;) 18:37:46 #action henne to write rules of engagement for email discussion to strategy team 18:37:52 move on. 18:38:10 is there nothing to see? 18:38:24 henne: ? 18:38:28 nope:-/ 18:38:33 see? 18:38:34 move on. there is nothing to see 18:38:44 #topic Growing the Community 18:39:01 i actually tried to summarize what we talked about in the project meeting today 18:39:19 but couldn't? 18:39:21 we stil need to send out minutes to reach a wider audience 18:39:33 sorry, didn't check the logs yet 18:39:37 michl wanted to that that right? 18:39:49 "we" who? The project or the Board? 18:40:04 you and me baby 18:40:08 and the kids 18:40:16 the board of course! 18:40:39 well yes we need to publish the minutes more widely or at least point to our logs more clearly 18:40:51 henne: so actually, with "the project meeting today", you meant the board meeting on friday? :) 18:41:03 yaloki: no 18:41:03 but also, in our F2F meeting, I mentioned that we need to also have each board member post an article monthly 18:41:06 ok :) 18:41:15 yaloki: i summarized our friday meeting in the project meeting today 18:41:17 yaloki, yes henne confused me on that too 18:41:23 but think we still need to send out minutes 18:41:27 henne: ah, ok, great :) 18:41:35 henne: yep, makes sense 18:41:54 so i hope we at least agree to each of us posting 1 article about the musings of the community 18:41:58 henne: I think it should be worth it writing a short board meeting summary on ML 18:42:00 so prusnak and i were asking ourself who had the ai to do that? 18:42:03 2 articles per board member per year should not be that hard 18:42:20 i guess we forgot to mention release team discussion 18:42:26 henne: if you have a good log in the project meeting, I'm fine with doing a summary 18:42:44 minutes publication alone are not going to grow the community. Minutes are going to be read primarily by those already in the community 18:42:47 prusnak: oh right! 18:42:48 it's just that unfortunately, I didn't keep any notes from the meet on friday 19:00:20 we just fixed a second failure 19:00:22 yaloki: in other word a ticketing system ;) 19:00:29 henne: no, just being polite :) 19:00:37 henne: but that too, yes 19:00:43 henne: there is a ticket system in place for opensuse infrastructure 19:00:54 but i guess we failed to communicate that :) 19:00:56 darix: not-public... 19:01:01 retro? 19:01:04 no 19:01:30 2 things. there is ticket@opensuse.org (IIRC). that will open one in the internal tool 19:01:35 henne, here's my thinking... (brace yourself) 19:01:42 omg! 19:01:46 * henne gets the video camer 19:01:51 suseROCKs is thinking! 19:01:55 but since 1.5 weeks we have an infrastructure component in the bugzilla 19:01:59 * yaloki falls off his chair 19:02:10 darix: orly? cool :) 19:02:16 opensuse -> opensuse.org -> infrastructure 19:02:16 as you and others complain that what we consider roadblocks are non-existent, why not we post a general request for comments on where community sees roadblocks and focus on dispelling any myths that they had about it in the firs tplace? 19:02:24 darix: but bugzilla is no ticketing system ;) 19:02:30 great that darix and coolo take care of mirrors - but I suggest to document this as part of the admin pages... 19:02:31 its a ticket dump 19:02:36 henne: the difference between the 2 is marginal 19:03:01 darix: internal tools is bad IMO. 19:03:12 AJaeger: i propose bugzilla as external interface 19:03:13 suseROCKs: because we can KISS and just come up with the ones we know about 19:03:16 or get told about 19:03:19 thats why i asked for the component 19:03:20 ok, so bugzilla is the right place to file tickets for infrastructure 19:03:30 k 19:03:41 AJaeger: for the other stuff lars and me are still sorting a few things before things get announced. 19:03:48 I agree 19:04:18 darix: so would it be OK that if mirror emails are unanswered on admin@ I create tickets for them in bugzilla ? (and reply to them with the link to their bug) 19:04:35 darix: (just trying to get some work load off of your shoulders) 19:04:51 yaloki, but what if the mail got answered directly and didn't cc' the original mail group? 19:04:57 yaloki: it just has a backlog atm. normally it is like 1 mail per month on that topic 19:04:58 suseROCKs: i mean this also does not spark to many expectations 19:05:08 see I presumed that someone *was* ansewring them directly, and today I learn that's not the case. 19:05:10 darix: there have been a lot more recently 19:05:16 darix: more like one every 2 or 3 days 19:05:44 yaloki: it was just a small spike. normally it is quiet 19:06:01 ok 19:06:10 can we get off the implementation of the mirror thing? 19:06:17 i'm sure darix is on top of that 19:06:36 if you want to help him lets do that after the meeting okay? :) 19:06:48 henne, I would suggest s/get off/move on from/ "get off" left a kinky connotation 19:07:03 me kinky? never! 19:08:07 so where else do we fail? :) 19:08:07 come on... next! I need to go downtown to replace the phone I lost in NUE 19:09:41 move on... there are no additional suggestions atm although I'm certain we'll have them as they arise. 19:09:42 so we're bug free? 19:10:53 let me get back to the write down - if we empower people we should make that konwn 19:11:25 we should also cheer them up occasionally - and we should find a way to tutor first. 19:11:47 And then what if that person has a problem and needs help? Where to go? 19:11:49 yep, that's the somewhat bigger plan 19:11:52 Brilliant point Ajaeger 19:11:57 i don't think we're not in need for a general purpose plan for this... 19:12:24 at the very least, I think that the board needs to play the role of a facilitator there 19:12:29 henne: I thought this was a general purpose discussion - mirror was just a concrete first example 19:12:33 if people don't know whom to get in touch with, poke board@o.o 19:12:37 Tutor is the key, without this maney mistakes 19:12:46 many mistakes 19:13:10 CarlosRibeiro: Yes - but everybody makes mistakes and that should not hinder a person. 19:13:12 CarlosRibeiro, yes but we also agree that it is okay for people to make mistakes, as long as they are given the opportunity to make them. 19:13:14 CarlosRibeiro: yep, but that needs some degree of organization 19:13:16 yaloki: safety-net :) 19:13:21 maybe a online chat for help, and we can schedule some guys to take care 19:13:23 But tutoring does not scale! 19:13:24 henne: no, contact point 19:13:34 henne: then we find out whom to poke and put them in touch 19:13:38 robjo: *Initial* tutoring 19:13:42 henne: it's not about doing the work ourselves 19:13:44 robjo: not for the whole time 19:13:52 robjo: of course it scales 19:13:53 so what are you talking about? 19:14:06 AJaeger: Even initial tutoring is difficult, I think 19:14:08 some general purpose plan to for new contributors? 19:14:23 henne: who are you talking to ? :) 19:14:29 or old contributors taking over a new role 19:14:31 robjo, but the point is if someone wants to do something and needs assistance, we should be able to provide someone to tutor that person. 19:14:34 the people that participate in this discussion 19:14:51 "Here just do it" with no guidance (tutoring) at all is not fruitful. 19:14:59 Mistakes is important I know, but could be not so good without lessons learned 19:15:08 suseROCKs: agreed, but we need better resources for slef help 19:15:09 CarlosRibeiro: indeed 19:15:27 robjo, that's what we're identifying now, indeed 19:15:30 of course not. but how the tutoring will work is at the discretion of the one doing it rightr? 19:15:33 CarlosRibeiro: we also want to be in a friendly environment where failing is OK, and where we can have honest feedback to improve what we do 19:15:44 we always strive for general purpose plans... 19:15:53 they sound nice and never work 19:15:53 but also we as community have to accept the mistakes and be under the assumption that people learn - instead of "he made a mistake one year ago and I'm going to tell that every time again he shows up..." 19:16:06 yaloki: Agreed 19:16:07 I preparing some short videos about how to contribute to opensuse, but only in portugues, the videos have no more than 2 minutes and I'm using students from public schools here in brazil 19:16:13 henne: I don't see any plan here 19:16:19 henne: just explaining the motivation 19:16:21 AJaeger, +1,000 19:16:32 CarlosRibeiro: Cool, please send links - and a short translation if possible. 19:16:38 AJaeger: its about you accepting that we might end up with no milestone announcement for a couple of times :) 19:16:40 pretty soon 19:16:44 maybe 2 weeks 19:17:07 CarlosRibeiro, we can subtitle your videos into multiple langauges easily on YouTube 19:17:16 AJaeger: and situations like that 19:17:27 AJaeger: even if you desperately need them 19:17:38 ok 10 dollars for that translations/subtitles 19:18:04 CarlosRibeiro: huh? 19:18:08 and I send the links withsubtitle done 19:18:17 can we discuss one topic at a time please? 19:18:17 :-) 19:18:39 either videos or what AJaeger talked about 19:18:41