16:01:02 #startmeeting 16:01:02 Meeting started Wed Jun 2 16:01:02 2010 UTC. The chair is henne. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 16:01:02 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 16:01:07 #meetingtopic Welcome to the openSUSE Project Meeting! 16:01:10 Welcome to the openSUSE Project Meeting! 16:01:14 This meeting is meant to discuss the latest developments in and around openSUSE. 16:01:19 The topics for this meeting are: 16:01:36 1. Old Action Items 16:01:36 2. Status Reports 16:01:36 1. Board 16:01:36 2. Distribution 16:01:36 3. Communication / Events 16:01:38 4. Build Service 16:01:41 3. Wiki Migration 16:01:43 4. Questions & Answers 16:01:46 1. From Wiki 16:01:49 2. From Channel 16:02:18 lets go 16:03:12 #topic Old Action Items 16:03:31 you can find them in bugzilla with this url: http://bit.ly/opensuse_action_items 16:03:40 any progress? 16:04:18 is this still the right tool to track our action items? 16:04:52 we might consider retrospectiva as other subprojects are using it, but i don't think it is a tool issue :-/ 16:04:53 henne: The question is also whether it does not make sense to remind people personally before the meeting - or discuss with them whether we should close something. 16:05:25 AJaeger: i thought thats what meetings are for :) 16:05:39 yes, lets have a pre-meeting ;-) 16:05:50 henne: i think there are updated kde and gnome appliances 16:05:52 we track them with #action now 16:06:06 I meant a personal email: Please take care of your ai and report back next meeting 16:06:15 I'm unsure how up-to-date is the gnome appliance, though 16:06:16 henne: so #456622 is no more valid 16:06:37 vuntz: Could you mark the bug as done, please? 16:07:09 AJaeger: if someone can give me a link to an upstream gnome appliance, yes :-) 16:07:09 vuntz: http://susestudio.com/a/zpzr67/gnome-reloaded--2 16:07:14 AJaeger: from who? 16:07:38 digitltom: cool 16:07:39 henne: from you, me or whoever volunteers ;) 16:08:06 vuntz: you can get in contact with andre, so he can give you write permissions for it 16:08:06 i barely find time to run these meetings :-/ 16:08:07 digitltom: not exactly what the AI is about, though (it's about an appliance with upstream branding, as far as I remember it) 16:09:12 what i can do is put the things we mark with #action to bugzilla at the ned of the meeting 16:09:19 vuntz: if the branding upstream package exists that should be no problem, we can clone andre's appliance for that 16:09:27 but to be fair, that's an AI for the gnome team, so I'm not sure why it appears in the list here :-) 16:09:52 vuntz: bcause he used the "Action Items" component 16:10:00 digitltom: yeah. Someone just need to do it -- never had time to play with that myself 16:10:21 vuntz:We should mark it as [AI GNOME] then... 16:10:43 nod 16:10:47 if you track your AI's there 16:10:56 do you? 16:11:27 henne: we did in the past, I think 16:11:36 otherwise magnus is using this component as his personal todo list and we should sponsor him an RTM account ;) 16:11:38 * vuntz updated the bug 16:11:57 okioki 16:12:25 the other two are not here 16:12:31 digitltom: (thanks for the link to this appliance) 16:12:36 two assignees 16:13:00 #action henne put everything we mark with #action to bugzilla after the meetings 16:13:15 next topic? 16:13:31 yes, sir! 16:14:07 #topic Status Reports 16:14:19 teams and people send various status reports 16:14:25 coolo, do we have a distribution status report? 16:14:35 coolo does for the distribution, the boosters for their milestones etc. 16:15:01 is there anything regarding those to talk about ? 16:15:16 henne: Did Coolo send one? I might have missed it... 16:16:10 last one I find is from May 19th... 16:16:13 henne: i don't remember who had AI to send report from board meeting in NBG 16:16:52 prusnak: michl took note so i assumed he 16:17:05 prusnak: but we can also give it live :) 16:17:18 should i or do you want to? 16:17:29 henne: me and michl won't be attending today's meeting 16:17:36 and bryen is also puzzled 16:17:42 i mean now 16:17:45 not later : 16:18:01 AJaeger: i don't think so. cant find any either 16:18:45 so the board meet in person last friday and had a board face to face meeting in nuremberg 16:19:12 we discussed our "normal" agenda that we also go through in our IRC meetings 16:19:54 in great detail we talked about what the board wants to do the next months 16:20:52 we came to the conclusion that we also want to look at roadblocks for contributors 16:21:07 mostly in the spirit and communication areas 16:21:39 so for instance we talked a great length about giving people real power 16:22:03 which also means living with the fact that they can fail 16:22:48 not always provide this savety net that we all like so much 16:23:10 henne: may I ask a definition of "real power"? 16:23:26 but also simple things like looking at failures of communication like response time of people responsible for something 16:23:50 the example was mirror requests i think 16:24:24 vuntz:if someone is responsible for something it means that he is responsible for success and for failure 16:24:40 what we like to do often is to provide a safety net 16:24:47 for instance the milestone announcements 16:25:36 :W 34 16:25:38 (sorry) 16:25:46 we ask james to write those, but keep pinging him about it, write them half for him and so on 16:26:18 henne: For me it was not clear that he signed up forever to do these - and seeing his feedback it was not clear to him either. 16:26:41 AJaeger: i don't want to discuss details 16:26:47 this was just an example 16:27:06 if we put people in charge we should make clear to them (and to everyone else) that they are responsible for this 16:27:30 henne: and write it at a well-known place in the wiki 16:27:52 we might have both a place with open jobs - and with responsibilities... 16:28:12 henne: makes sense (although I thought it was already like that -- the safety net is not because we want a safety net but because we all care) 16:28:17 for most teams teams this can be part of the team page 16:28:29 vuntz: yep but for starters this is blocking us we think 16:28:35 AJaeger: A place with open jobs is nice but not what henne says 16:28:49 I guess... 16:28:59 dragotin: If you want to empower people, you need to tell them also what they can do ;) 16:29:00 vuntz: because then people don't really dive in 16:29:13 henne: sure, I agree 16:29:28 AJaeger: thats correct, and that works only if you, in the first time, take them by the hand and show him/her 16:29:48 this made also something very clear to us 16:29:50 henne: We might need both - for those that want a tutor/coach that helps them with the first steps - and later let them run on their own and just help when they ask for help! 16:30:01 and help a second time maybe and than LET GO! 16:30:17 dragotin: Seems we agree ;) 16:30:28 AJaeger: sure we agree 16:30:37 AJaeger: we didnt talk implementation. come to the board meetings. implementation is a topic there :) 16:30:47 what we have to learn is feeling comfortable with that actually 16:30:47 so this made also something very clear to us 16:30:54 we are, with communication and behaviour, way behind all the technical changes 16:31:00 that allow responsibility 16:31:08 henne: Do you have a board meeting today? 16:31:19 and thats what the board wants to try to change in the next couple of months 16:31:43 henne: Sounds great! Go, board, go! 16:31:44 AJaeger: yes. at 18:00 UTC 16:32:09 prusnak: did i forget anything? 16:32:14 probably 16:32:24 AJaeger: good :) 16:32:38 henne: 18:00 UTC is a no-go for me in general, I doubt I can make it :-( but will try 16:33:03 AJaeger: you can also leave your ideas on our meeting page Meetings/Board :) 16:33:33 okay thats it from the board status update then 16:33:39 anything else we need to discuss? 16:33:41 henne: It's getting off-topic now: But why not paste the current agenda later in the meeting to invite everybody? 16:34:19 everybody goto http://en.opensuse.org/Meetings/Board :) 16:34:31 that should be enough 16:34:35 okay next topic? 16:35:27 #topic Wiki Migration 16:35:58 as you probably have noticed we have the second of june and wiki.o.o and en.o.o are not switched 16:36:25 thats because the wiki team feels very strongly that the new wiki is not ready yet 16:37:05 we think that if we switch now we will not be able to handle all the cleanups afterwards 16:37:39 the reason is pretty simple: wiki.o.o has still a lof of gaping holes content wise 16:37:51 henne: What is the plan to fill the holes? 16:37:55 so we are talking about slipping the date 16:38:15 (even more then we already have ;) 16:38:36 AJaeger: take more time and approach the "owners" of those holes 16:39:38 so we can bring them up to speed with the new structure and things 16:39:48 and they then do the migration theirself 16:40:14 we did so already for a couple of them (Weekly news, STUDIO, etc) 16:40:16 henne: What about an IRC classroom session where everybody gets invitied? 16:40:33 AJaeger: we rather want to approach people individually 16:40:44 I know I can always ask on opensuse-wiki (correct?) but making it a special effort might get some more people in 16:40:55 instead of a broad shot 16:41:09 AJaeger: I like the idea. Are you picking the AI ? 16:41:23 AJaeger: that we plan to do once we go live and the "general openSUSE public" starts to use it 16:42:26 its easier to go to Sascha for and teach him how to do Weekly News then to hope that he swings by in an irc session 16:42:38 we have a big list of stuff that we need to do 16:42:39 http://wiki.opensuse.org/Help:Todo 16:43:03 dragotin: I know too little to do that and thing the wiki team can handle this on their own. But if they need help for a classroom sesion setup, I'm willing to help and I hope you help as well ;) 16:44:01 anyway 16:44:07 henne: Should each user migrate his own user page? 16:44:12 like i said. we don't plan classrooms (yet) 16:44:19 * dragotin helps whereever possible 16:44:27 AJaeger: yes 16:44:43 AJaeger: yes. everybody is welcome and invited to help as much as possible 16:44:58 everything is documented on http://wiki.opensuse.org/Portal:Wiki 16:45:03 ok, then I'll do mine soon ;) 16:45:30 so the date we're aiming at is the 12th of July 16:45:37 the week of the 11.3 release 16:45:51 well, but for example the user page migration is something which needs a broader announcement 16:46:06 if we want that everybody does it, we must _tell_ people 16:46:19 guys. the user pages are the least of our worries 16:46:22 along with a howto possibly 16:46:34 sure 16:46:43 ok 16:46:44 we have no 11.3 stuff and very little project stuff in the wiki 16:46:59 so userpages are really not what this migration hangs on ;) 16:47:06 user pages migration might get some people upto speed with the migration and help with others later on 16:47:24 might be 16:47:33 we said what we want to do 16:47:40 distribution + 11.3 product presentation is nearly completely missing 16:47:44 henne: So, the Help:Todo is not prioritized - where is your secret priority list? 16:47:57 AJaeger: all of this is A priority 16:48:09 AJaeger: without that we can't go live 16:48:40 henne: Sorry for beeing dense but you just said that Users is not important - and then you say all is A priority. Now I'm confused... 16:49:40 I think everything on http://wiki.opensuse.org/Help:Todo is a priority 16:49:52 AJaeger: users is not on that list 16:50:34 digitltom: I saw members and read users - you're right. Sorry henne, I was confused indeed ;) 16:51:10 so we are thinking about doing the switch at the 12th of July 16:51:23 to take the traction the 11.3 release (same week) brings into the wiki 16:51:35 this would give us another month to do stuff 16:51:47 and would still bring the new wiki in time for 11.3 16:52:01 which was our original goal 16:52:20 i already talked to darix and he said technicall the 12th would be no problem 16:52:39 is there anything else you guys can think of that speaks against this date? 16:53:05 only that its still challenging 16:53:32 true 16:53:54 but lately we're gaining some tracktion 16:54:05 so i think we can make that date 16:54:15 i think we have 2 new boosters on it, so it can work 16:54:36 henne, digitltom: Cool! 16:54:40 trying to get critical work done while the world cup is in progress looks like a big challenge to me :) 16:54:41 yeah and i need to push michl more for the B1 sponsoring... 16:55:03 dragotin: it needs to be challenging ;) 16:55:17 AJaeger: it needs people who work 16:55:36 robjo: yeah tell me about it... 16:55:39 dragotin: Yes for sure! 16:55:55 robjo: We can't wish that all teams lose in the first round ;) 16:55:59 so no objections to the 12th? 16:56:35 AJaeger: sure, but we can wish that Germany loses in the first round. Just one team, it's okay ;-) 16:57:00 henne: big +1. I think we want it for 11.3 anyway, so... 16:57:14 * henne smacks vuntz with a large vuvuzela 16:57:14 vuntz: Bring your armor with you next week to Germany :-) 16:57:31 vuntz: 54, 74, 90, 2010 16:57:39 is france in actually ? ;-) 16:57:57 heh. We made it. We just cheated for that. 16:57:59 okay then we will most likely go for that date 16:58:05 henne: Go for it and keep us updated - I might even help ;) 16:58:08 sure 16:58:10 will do 16:58:13 next topic then? 16:58:18 we have 2 minutes left 16:58:22 yes, hurry 16:58:29 #topic Questions & Answers 16:58:34 otherwise I get the nudelholz at home 16:58:39 there are no questions on the wiki 16:58:50 are there any other topics we need to discuss now? 16:58:56 I have one question: will the strategy team continue to exist once we have decided on the strategy? 16:58:56 or are there any general questions? 16:59:22 AJaeger? 16:59:38 vuntz: what reason are you thinking of? 17:00:46 vuntz: The strategy needs to be implemented. 17:00:53 well, I'm just wondering and I have no opinion -- is it actually useful or not to keep the strategy team in the long term? 17:01:07 We have not discussed how to implement it and help with the implementation. 17:01:14 nod, makes sense 17:01:14 well, a strategy has to keep alive as everything 17:01:24 it might be that the team continues to do it - or the board takes over, or some extra team... 17:01:30 so a kind of strat team needs to exist I guess 17:01:35 dragotin: sure, I just don't expect our strategy to change every month 17:01:40 right 17:01:49 We need to find a way to drive the strategy implementation... 17:01:50 well 17:02:00 this team then should consist of the people in charge now 17:02:01 I wonder if need an explicit team for that 17:02:05 who CAN implement it 17:02:09 vuntz: Yes, the goal of that team would be different than it is now 17:02:13 IMHO a strategy is in need of adjustment from time to time and smaller adjustments are better than large adjustments, thus a strategy team should exist, albeit meet probably infrequently. 17:02:22 it should probably be more than a forum/meeting/list whatever 17:02:45 robjo: often this kind of strategy work is done by a bunch of core contributors 17:02:46 but the current team can drive that 17:02:56 without a official assignment I guess 17:03:02 * vuntz thinks the current team can help bootstrap things, indeed 17:03:43 yes, there is no need to stop the current team from doing things that go beyond defining and proposing the strategy 17:03:45 AJaeger: are you still meeting? 17:03:49 the strategy will only be successfull if all of us support it and enough contribute 17:03:58 henne: face to face? Not anymore 17:04:10 no i mean in general 17:04:15 irc or whatever 17:04:15 But we continue to meet for the next couple of weeks. 17:04:31 can you take that question to the meeting? 17:04:52 Next milestone is writing up the strategy proposals - and then it's defining the voting process 17:04:54 dragotin: yes, and this might work well after the initial push is completed 17:04:58 henne: Give me that action item 17:04:59 it might be that they don't want to continue so we don't have to talk in the bubble were in right now :) 17:05:28 henne: The team will make a proposal ... 17:05:31 #action AJaeger ask the strategy team about their plans for after the initial proposals 17:06:04 * AJaeger needs to leave now - there's a smelly diaper in front of me :-( 17:06:12 mmmmhhhh yummy 17:06:29 so any other question/topic? 17:06:44 when does summer start? 17:06:50 sorry 17:07:06 saturday in the weißenoher kloster biergarten 17:08:01 is ß again allowed in hochdeutsch? 17:08:09 yes 17:08:18 prusnak: it was never forbidden 17:08:38 and weißenohe is not hochdeutsch 17:08:38 prusnak: only some usecases were taken away 17:08:48 digitltom: thats also true 17:09:17 Okay that's it then. If you have more, don't hesitate to bring it up on the appropriate mailinglist. 17:09:20 #info The next project meeting will be in two weeks. Same channel but this time at 12:00 UTC. 17:09:23 Thank you all for participating. Good night and good luck! 17:09:27 #endmeeting