18:05:34 #startmeeting 18:05:34 Meeting started Wed Mar 21 18:05:34 2012 UTC. The chair is wstephenson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:05:34 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:05:44 #meetingtopic Welcome to the openSUSE KDE community IRC meeting! Please wait with other discussion until the meeting is over. This meeting is logged. 18:06:19 hello everybody and welcome to the second instance of our team meeting this week 18:06:30 we thought we hadn't had one for so long that we should have 2 at the same tmie 18:06:39 bit like buses in england 18:07:08 we going to have double-decker mtgs next? 18:07:08 today's agenda 18:07:24 toothpik: yeah, half of us have to write in superscript, the other in subscript 18:07:32 this week's agenda 18:07:37 * Rebooting the team 18:07:43 * 12.2 Focus and features 18:07:51 /me waves 18:08:00 * Ensure that patches to KDF, KR48 are delivered to the user within 24 hours 18:08:08 * Rename Repo KDE 3 in trinity 18:08:12 * status report 18:08:16 * Q&A, misc 18:08:40 anything else? 18:09:07 wstephenson: Rename maybe shall be delete.... 18:09:22 alin: why? 18:09:26 s/Rename/Move it is actually, well. Lets wait for its turn. 18:09:26 alin: miaow! 18:09:31 http://home.kde.org/~kdelive/ needs to be overhauled 18:09:55 KDE-* Live CDs aren't based on 11.3 :-P 18:10:10 yeah yeah :) 18:10:17 that would be misc 18:10:21 it's cause all our good people get hired away :P 18:10:27 so 18:10:33 #topic status report 18:10:47 i'll start 18:11:05 * wstephenson has been literally beating the shit out of akonadi to make it tolerably good 18:11:34 bravo! 18:11:37 this enables 12.2 to not suck and enables us to update 12.1 pim to 4.8.2 or so. 18:11:42 hehe 18:12:14 i haven't been doing that much coding yet, just repeatedly testing and rubbing upstream's nose in it until they fix things. 18:12:20 (which works quite well) 18:12:42 krop confirmed its much better, so good job ;) 18:13:07 anyway. am doing less of that now, so i can contribute to the next boosters' sprint, which is appstore support for 12.2 (on Apper) 18:13:13 EOT, who's next? cartman? 18:13:40 Helped with delivering 4.8.1 in KDF, submitting to O:F and taking care of some dependencies in KDF 18:13:51 blocked by Boosters sprint & SLE/openSUSE bugs atm. 18:14:01 if your Xorg crashes I might be the one to blame :P 18:14:22 cartman: thanks for carrying the maintenance burden for us for a bit 18:14:28 my pleasure 18:14:43 s/pleasure/job actually =) 18:15:00 anyhow I don't see any urgent tasks for 12.2 18:15:23 cartman: let's change that shall we? 18:15:26 sure 18:15:37 maxlin: what have you been up to? 18:16:01 help packages update in KDF 18:16:17 survey what we can do for next Boosters sprint 18:16:31 SLE/openSUSE bugs atm 18:16:42 cool 18:17:12 who wants to be next? 18:17:28 javier: what's happening at open-slx, anything relevant for the mothership? 18:19:03 krop: status? 18:19:15 cb400f: status? 18:19:18 rabauke: status? 18:19:20 calligra submitted to OF 18:19:24 krop: awesome! 18:19:30 that was quick! 18:19:34 I disabled build of koffice2 in KDF 18:19:45 it was failing to build anyway 18:19:49 (submitted, not accepted) 18:19:49 announcing 4.8.1 packages, trying to get feedback on kdepim data loss bugs 18:20:16 rabauke: thanks for doing the announce there 18:20:17 krop: we'll make them accept it :P 18:20:24 keeping linkrevs in kua current 18:20:44 ctrippe: got status for us? 18:20:56 I went through roughly 100 old KDE bugs on 11.3 and checked/asked if they are still valid or moved/closed them if I knew the answer but still ~50 to go. Not speaking about the other 550 open bugs. 18:21:03 cartman: saschpe seems to want a dozen more packages from the same tarball 18:21:08 ctrippe: uh oh very nice 18:21:19 krop: I don't agree with that, those shared libs are not really shared 18:21:36 shouldn't block for M^3 18:22:00 wstephenson: open-slx? no idea 18:22:17 javier: just doing basyskom stuff atm? 18:22:32 I think you meant open-pc 18:22:46 I've never worked (yet) for open-slx 18:22:46 oh i thought you had joined the merry bunch in darmstadt... 18:22:55 maybe i'm psychic 18:23:04 :D 18:23:11 so you're back doing studies, or working for frank? 18:23:17 wstephenson senses upcoming job offers ;P 18:23:21 tell me to stop being nosy if you like 18:23:25 hehe 18:23:30 no, it's perfectly fine 18:23:38 I'm working for basyskom atm 18:23:55 ah bingo, i was nearly right 18:24:00 yeah 18:24:23 ok, no more status? 18:24:56 not really 18:25:17 I did some work on the kde live cds but they need to do some exercise, as always 18:25:18 thanks everyone for your contributions! 18:25:33 #topic Rebooting the team 18:26:07 so since we have been doing as the proverb says, good work, quietly 18:26:13 people started to worry if we were dead. 18:26:30 * cartman nods 18:26:36 * wstephenson thinks we should all go hack on fvwm2 for 3 months and then see what people think happened to us.... 18:27:19 We need more status reports to mailing list I guess. 18:27:33 the status at suse is, we have 2.5 full time resources in the boosters team 18:27:38 me, cartman and maxlin 18:27:45 "in the boosters team" 18:28:11 is a bit of a slippery definition since we have boosters sprints that are supposed to find time besides our topic (KDE) work 18:28:46 however i think we have been punching below our weight for 2.5 people 18:29:14 some of that is unavoidable money-earning BS like fixing KDE 4.3 stuff for SLE11SP2 18:29:15 less people than before? 18:29:24 depends how you define before 18:29:33 right :) 18:29:41 if before == 2004, we have .5 more 18:29:50 if 2006, we have 3 less 18:30:09 it goes like a W 18:30:10 anyway not really useful to compare because we do a lot more things at once than we used to do, and the tools are better 18:30:12 isn't KDe-hours all that matters? 18:30:29 to KDE 18:30:44 rabauke: not really, SLE stuff on 4.3 doesn't help opensuse much 18:31:21 so me, cartman and maxlin have to get our shit more together IMO and spend less time on My Little Pony Online 18:31:49 wow, I never complain again *seufz* 18:32:11 Wherever there is VPN access there is KDE work possible for me :P 18:32:11 what about the facebook farm, no more crops? 18:32:12 generally decide what we have to do and execute it 18:32:26 javier: we have to burn the fields and sow them with salt. 18:32:32 ;D 18:33:03 part of that is being disciplined into not jumping on people's pet issues to help them when i've got other things going on 18:33:32 and other parts are recognising what problems the non-employed parts of the team can solve and making them clearly available for action 18:34:02 and, as was said yesterday, more status reports so ppl do know about all the things we are doing 18:34:03 yep. a jobs list would help people who want to contribute in a way they can 18:34:13 agreed. 18:34:14 tweeting? 18:34:22 :P 18:35:03 also not just noddy jobs, but the difficult things too, that are not currently on our compilers, you never know, perhaps someone from upstream comes and helps or someone else fancies improving his Qt/c++/packaging skills. 18:35:41 so that's my view of the suse side. cartman, maxlin, your thoughts? 18:35:46 keeping track of tasks is either way a good idea. 18:36:10 oh 1 more thing, i'm back fulltime as of September 18:36:27 Well surely a clear list of tasks would help 18:36:29 sweet 18:36:34 +1 18:36:42 this would be for others to read the prubliziert and to help consider 18:37:27 you mean the mailing list? 18:37:32 it's not bad to look helpers to public ..... 18:37:47 yes 18:37:55 a list where people can see how they can help 18:38:08 rabauke: +1 18:38:33 are we trying to do too much? 18:38:39 they can help in so many ways... the response is in themselves 18:38:42 from editing the wiki before new kde releases to packaging, patching and bug triages. maybe also forum watching as they get more popular 18:38:51 i sometimes wonder that KR48 eats more of my time than I expected it to. 18:39:02 KRXX is important 18:39:29 i think it's a success 18:39:41 yeah especially 4.8.1 was a good release timing wise 18:39:45 we delivered in time 18:39:50 what could we do about little packages not being up-to-date on KR48? 18:40:24 javier: good question :/ 18:40:28 javier: script a diff of all packages to KDF ? 18:40:50 I was thinking about diff'ing and if it's not an alpha/beta, update it 18:41:11 makes sense for me 18:41:38 but updating linkrevs takes more time than i expected it to 18:41:57 osc setlinkrev <-- updates to latest revision 18:42:08 eg you update something in KDF (say 3-4 packages belonging together) 18:42:39 can't you just issue setlinkrev for a whole repo? 18:42:40 then you need to wait until they all built cleanly before you can setlinkrev in KR48, otherwise you publish multiple times 18:42:56 we could have a script that diff's the whole thing, and update KR48 packages if necessary 18:43:09 can be easily scripted I think. 18:43:56 rabauke: martin (obs guy) told me once that you can link a whole repo but I think it doesn't make sense in this case 18:45:09 ok, probably enough on KR48 18:45:27 summary: we need it but need scripts to enable us to concentrate on the work work 18:45:43 I also think it doesn't make sense to build a new live cd every time we update some little package in KR48 18:45:48 sure 18:46:08 but when it's good to build one, that's another question 18:46:12 one thing that costs me a lot of time is finding out why something is build-disabled or publish-disabled 18:46:34 especially if the question can only be answered by someone who is not very responsive 18:46:43 OBS needs notes. 18:47:07 and a publish enable-disable history perhaps? 18:47:07 but an unresponsive guy won't fill that out ;) 18:47:21 yep ;( 18:47:37 unless a comment is required for certain operations 18:47:40 javier: I thought that e.g. osc setlinkrev openSUSE:Tumbleweed would update all links 18:48:29 hmm, I don't know 18:48:48 I work on updating specific packages 18:48:52 but then kr4x would have almost as many full rebuilds as kdf 18:49:08 which is evil 18:49:08 tweeting your obs changes, to tell the people you disabled publish 18:49:45 javier: too lossy 18:49:54 javier: man osc states so [PACKAGE] is optional. so it should be an easy way to make kr48 links update to their latest source revision 18:50:43 j/k 18:50:49 our scripts should also take care of disabling publish in all dependent repos before updating versions/links 18:50:53 javier: haha 18:51:10 maybe auto-poke on Facebook 18:51:11 :P 18:51:15 :D 18:51:18 that would save the problem of publishing eg KUP built vs unpublished version in KDF 18:52:29 * cartman dreams of a graph visualization of inter-repo dependencies 18:53:54 cartman: suggest a sprint 18:53:56 or a gsoc 18:54:06 cartman: your topic for nex hackweek? 18:54:08 put this on the mailinglist for discussion, maybe others have an idea where to place the notes. 18:54:23 heheh 18:55:00 ok, anything else on rebooting the team? 18:55:07 We are alive!!!111! 18:55:51 it lives, it lives .... 18:56:00 who? 18:56:09 yesterday status reports to the mailinglist were mentioned. so nothing to add regarding that. 18:56:40 rabauke: yup. 18:57:19 ok 18:57:26 #topic 12.2 focus 18:58:31 so basically i think the last time we discussed this we were all agreed on stability and polish being the main focus? 18:59:02 and yesterday we talked about getting Calligra and KDE-Telepathy into 12.2, right? 18:59:13 yes 18:59:19 yes 18:59:22 yes 19:00:17 and kdepim having the highest priority of everything done for 12.2. 19:00:29 i think that's very important 19:00:44 but not the only thing, because not everyone using kde uses kdepim 19:01:01 sure, but even less calligra or tlepathy 19:01:02 i particularly do not want kdepim to have any impact on people who do not use it 19:01:21 right 19:01:43 so i'd like to try and work out what stability and polish actually means as priority #1 19:01:58 no data loss. 19:01:59 there are a lot of areas outside pim that need it 19:02:01 eg 19:02:10 Activities make-it-cool effort 19:02:42 Plasma crashes discussed in kde-devel looks ugly too. 19:02:46 (in case you don't know, back in the day when we needed to fix somethign we made a branch in svn called eg kmail-make-it-cool 19:03:03 ) 19:03:18 Apper bugs 19:03:35 kickoff app menu hierarchy 19:03:47 default package selections (part of the above) 19:03:55 touchpad tapping :-| 19:04:18 regarding activities: activities lack a useful switcher for the panel. 19:04:20 splitting plasma-addons so not so much useless playground-level cruft is installed by default with it 19:04:20 kmix/pulseaudio stuff 19:04:49 multimedia keys - eg launching kamoso from the webcam key 19:04:54 * cb400f thinks stuff running in the default session should automatically have highest priority 19:05:46 would it not make sense to check what people complained about in order to set priorities? 19:06:06 fixing kwallet to setup automatically without a password in a default login 19:06:06 kdepim + migration was a big complaint 19:06:25 not being able to change user permissions to one needs was another. 19:06:33 in fact default OOTB experience, ktip popups, default window sizes, etc 19:06:49 rabauke: not a bad idea 19:06:56 loud minority 19:06:59 rabauke: it's worth looking at, but shouldnt' be the only thing, people complain about everything at some point 19:07:05 cb400f: says who? 19:07:15 our common sense and experience is just as important 19:07:26 * tigerfoot sorry a bit late, picking backlog 19:08:12 also we should consider the cost/benefit 19:08:25 yes, eg fixing kdepim migration would probably take me until 12.3 19:08:33 if we could list/prioritize this, people could give it a helping hand. 19:08:45 making a noticable difference with kdepim quality is a huge job 19:08:47 wstephenson: sure, but a documentations placed on the desktop and a link in the release notes not 19:09:06 fixing touchpad tapping disabledness is prolly a 5 minute job 19:09:21 cb400f: indeed :( 19:09:30 so what do we review to see what ppl complained about? 19:09:35 12.1 reviews 19:09:38 mailing list 19:09:40 bugs 19:09:42 forums 19:09:51 javier can do twitter 19:09:57 ;-) 19:10:03 ;-) 19:10:08 :D 19:10:10 hahaha 19:10:15 hehe 19:10:25 I think people still remember what caused trouble. 19:10:37 your memory may be in better shape than mine 19:10:45 but reading a few reviews might help as well. some read forums and remember those issues etc. 19:10:47 i have a noise filter to keep me sane 19:11:01 * cartman has his delete key handy 19:11:11 einar77_work should have an idea what gave the forums indigestion 19:12:14 for me the lack of smooth upgrade for nepomuk/akonadi/search capabilities ruins somewhat the promise of semantic desktop 19:12:26 I read #suse and #kde a lot 19:12:46 tigerfoot: what do you mean by upgrade? 19:12:49 for example until a few days I've virtuozo-t eating 4 cores / 8 at 100% just trying to get files and mail indexed ... 19:13:01 tigerfoot: that's in hand 19:13:13 * rabauke fingers crossed 19:13:15 the solution was kill every akonadi cash db/table and all nepomuk stuff. and restart from blank 19:13:46 i don't want to discuss that one now, since i know enough about it 19:14:01 indeed there are things in akonadi which have to be removed manually because akonadictl fsck etc. can't handle them. 19:14:21 but the bad side, was surprised to not see a backup of nepomuk available, the last 10 have only a few kb ... compared to a db that was someting like 3.6GB 19:14:29 anyone want to volunteer to scan our list and opensuse@ since 12.1 came out for red flag issues for 12.2? needs to be done quick, in a week. 19:14:45 I think that data loss has to have highest priority, no matter what app. 19:15:05 I can try that. Linuxsusefan reads forums as well, so he can contribute too. 19:15:40 what about bugs? ctrippe? 19:15:45 maxlin? ^ 19:15:45 who of the KDE devs at openSUSE uses kdepim? 19:16:10 dfaure :) 19:16:14 me... 19:16:27 dfaure is @opensuse ? ;-) 19:16:39 ah 19:16:46 I missed the "at opensuse" 19:16:52 anyway, dinner, bbl 19:17:09 * tigerfoot send sandwiches to krop so he can stay :D 19:17:32 that's .5 of the team. so you are on your own regarding kdepim, which seems bad. 19:17:44 rabauke: otoh its something i know relatively well 19:17:49 I guess it'S the same for nepomuk. 19:17:55 wstephenson: krop do a very excellent job on bug triage in kde 19:17:56 and i'm putting a lot of free time into it atm 19:18:13 krop: you want to summarize issues seen in bnc? 19:18:38 rabauke: I'm not kde dev, just a user of kdepim now (after living 17 years in Mozilla) 19:18:58 i'll go through kdepim-users@ 19:19:26 wstephenson: sure, but more people is better and maybe you are needeed on other bits a well. 19:19:55 wstephenson: I have no my working machine around atm, so cannot remember any important bugs 19:20:02 and if kde devs don't use it…maybe we should use thunderbird as default mail client ;) 19:20:34 maxlin: not tonight, just in the next week 19:20:43 rabauke: noo! 19:20:47 we've come too far 19:20:50 wstephenson: l 19:20:53 k 19:21:00 ok, so we should get a summary of issues. 19:21:09 * wstephenson realized he's been using kmail for ~12 years now 19:21:10 wstephenson: I will also try to collect important bugs 19:21:14 * tigerfoot now have 303913 files for6.4GB in the same folder .local/share/akonadi/file_db_data ( not the most recommended arch in filesystem) 19:21:32 tigerfoot: known issue, on my pester list 19:21:35 ls -l doesn't work anymore ... 19:21:40 they should not be cached so long there 19:21:52 sorry, dsl rebooted itself. 19:21:54 tigerfoot: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=282160 19:21:56 KDE bug 282160 in Akonadi (Maildir Resource) "akoandi does not delete mails from .local/share/akonadi/file_db_data" [Normal,New: ] 19:21:57 * cartman reads backlog 19:22:21 and we should create a list of "nice to have" polish 19:22:23 #action wstephenson ping data collectors for important issues on Monday next week, to report by wednesday 19:22:26 tigerfoot: you chose an interesting time to move to kdepim ;-) 19:22:33 rabauke: yes, like kubuntu's paperkuts 19:22:44 should I ask for people's input on a blog and forum? 19:23:04 rabauke: asking for new input will just generate a lot of noise and loud minorities 19:23:06 wstephenson: I can go to Randa in september with a big whip ... 19:23:12 hehe 19:23:13 wstephenson: ok 19:23:15 cb400f: I've wait 4.8.1 19:23:23 so other things for 12.2 19:23:27 but get kdepim 4.8.0 :-( 19:23:30 make activities not suck 19:23:42 ie make activities sortable in the switcher 19:23:49 cause we miss some flags in our build ... < maxlin 19:23:55 some kind of OSD when activating an activity 19:24:04 hotkeys for next/prev activity 19:24:07 make the switcher as space efficient as the virtual desktop one 19:24:25 basically nearly the same features as virtual desktops so the similarities exploit people's experience 19:24:40 * tigerfoot has tried activities and not convinced about them actually ... compared to sticked windows on a 8 virtuals desktop ... 19:24:49 we could create default activities that start applications 19:25:02 if apper can reliably install updates and local rpms, and kmix doesn't behave weird with pulseaudio running, and touchpad tapping is enabled by default 12.2 would have a good chance to shine 19:25:05 a Contribute to openSUSE activity for example 19:25:05 rabauke: doesn't work that well 19:25:17 cb400f: you're a loud minority :P 19:25:25 making people not complain about kdepim and nepomuk doesn't seem a realistic goal imo 19:25:31 rabauke: you need rekonq and all software able to restore a kind of context linked to the activity to be usefull 19:26:04 cb400f: if pulseaudio work, we can for pim stack 19:26:23 kdm: make the userlist part of the theme 19:26:24 * tigerfoot not sure about *kit things :-) 19:26:34 or make a version of the theme with a userlist 19:26:45 wstephenson: normally that should be already handle by EugeneA 19:27:18 its_pc is his nickname ... 19:27:23 i would love a kxrandr that remembers settings for each external monitor we use 19:27:34 would installing and using beclock by default makes us cool? 19:27:46 great idea.. and prolly realistic too 19:28:10 * tigerfoot have a request can we osc dr kde3* in oss ? 19:28:13 rabauke: i would like a showoff set of branding packages that show what kde is really capable of 19:28:16 wstephenson: what about switching back to normal when unplugging the external monitor first. :) 19:28:28 rabauke: that's a setting to remember too :) 19:28:33 ok 19:28:35 or should we deliver a package that automatically zypper lock out those crap 19:28:56 rabauke: eg that use beclock, non upstream default colours/fonts/icons, radical layout 19:29:07 takeoff widget 19:29:20 oh, and for the task list, nice screenshots and screencast tutorials. everybody can do that and it helps to mediate features etc. 19:29:23 the appmenu external menubar... 19:29:31 wstephenson: how hard is it ( tech & time consuming to create that?) 19:29:48 tigerfoot: not hard, you work out a well designed desktop 19:29:52 then codify it as -branding packages 19:30:28 there is a package with lots of panel defaults, mimicking unity etc. 19:30:28 it basically comes down to copying the relevant bits of -rc files into the default desktop's config 19:30:35 rabauke: where? 19:30:37 wstephenson: sound easy, but I believe there's a lot of design and important details to create/fix/package 19:30:45 wstephenson: I'll have to look it up 19:30:57 tigerfoot: there is work there 19:31:25 but other kde distros manage it (pardus/arch/chakra for example) 19:31:26 * tigerfoot saw also that the default ksplash with qml is great for theming (already talk with eugene about it too) 19:31:37 i think it's mostly down to having the balls to try it 19:31:47 tigerfoot: +1 19:32:03 wstephenson: I'm looking for a good excuse to go to akademy :-) even if it's short 19:32:16 wstephenson: http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php/Plasma+Panels+Collection+?content=147589 19:32:23 we should create crappy package, place them in factory, then send updates :D 19:32:29 if we do this, we need to make sure that whoever takes the task can take criticism 19:32:37 it seems to me that there's a trend to convert kde apps from qt/c++ to qml 19:32:49 because if i see a gold text on black background + celtic font david c rankin masterpiece I will kill it with fire. 19:33:19 javier: stated goal for KDE 5, this is just the beginning 19:33:19 * tigerfoot knows (like any artist) he can't do it wrong :-) 19:33:30 tigerfoot: well, i like your car 19:33:42 it's a bit like the aesthetic of Portal 19:33:56 wstephenson: what about removing stuff, is that polishing as well? grouping desktop/panel creates lots of crashes and the maintainer is unresponsive, so maybe we should also collect htings to remove. 19:33:58 classic science fiction 19:34:08 meaning qml as much as possible? 19:34:11 rabauke: i mentioned that above about plasma-addons crap 19:34:16 * tigerfoot dream about a really funcky white/green tuning design ... but well it's a lot of work and need time (money) to realize that 19:34:25 javier: where practical 19:34:30 wstephenson: I did not know it was an addon 19:34:32 ok 19:34:58 javier: i don't think kmail will be rewritten in qml, but lots of other applets will be 19:35:02 err apps 19:35:10 javier: eg KTP 19:35:14 kmail in qmail with new regressions :D 19:35:16 qml* 19:35:19 no more rewrites, please ;-) 19:35:20 rabauke: you get my drift though 19:35:21 ;) 19:35:25 yes 19:35:39 speaking of removing stuff 19:35:52 qml seems to be fancy but I'm not sure about its security 19:36:03 does anyone with a hardon for taking the shears to packages feel like doing a usable minimal-kde pattern? 19:36:10 javier: OT 19:36:23 i have a fantasy of something called KLyDE 19:36:25 indeed 19:36:30 K Lightweight Desktop Environment 19:36:31 :d 19:36:33 oops 0:-) 19:36:39 to Kompete with xfce etc 19:36:41 with razor-qt as the desktop? 19:36:43 nah 19:36:47 not that radical 19:37:00 I think there was some kind of light kde project 19:37:15