16:10:07 <llunak> #startmeeting
16:10:07 <bugbot> Meeting started Thu Jun 24 16:10:07 2010 UTC.  The chair is llunak. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:10:07 <bugbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:10:13 <llunak> agenda:
16:10:32 <llunak> * old action items
16:10:56 <llunak> * status report
16:11:21 <llunak> * Repository reorganisation conclusion
16:11:27 <llunak> * q&a, misc
16:11:35 <llunak> #topic old action items
16:12:09 <llunak> * wstephenson adds a start nepomuk button to the akonadi warning dialog
16:13:14 <llunak> wstephenson: daddy, try to focus :)
16:14:01 <wstephenson> WIP
16:14:11 <wstephenson> ie very late
16:14:31 <llunak> * reddwarf collect some informations about the default applications and
16:14:48 <llunak> * reddwarf; once we have the list we will know if the problem triggers for 11.2
16:14:54 <llunak> done, posted to the list
16:15:15 <llunak> * conclusion of repository reorganization
16:15:19 <llunak> a separate topic
16:15:40 <llunak> * javier will create LiveCDs of unstable KDE
16:15:50 <llunak> javier_: done I assume?
16:16:20 <wstephenson> needs more tweaking
16:16:28 <llunak> ok
16:16:31 <wstephenson> but all the hard work is done, wd there
16:17:52 <llunak> hmm ... the last minutes lack an AI section, and it's not clear to me what the status of some old AIs is
16:17:54 <javier_> llunak: that's right. thanks to coolo who fixed the repoe config, updated the list of packages and created a script for managing it
16:18:39 <llunak> ok ... tittiatcoke to write down a complimentary note in the minutes :)
16:19:03 <llunak> I'll run over the old AIs too to be sure, just say it's been handled if that's the cae
16:19:05 <llunak> case
16:19:29 <llunak> * wstephenson, javier_ write the ksuseinstall text
16:19:32 <wstephenson> write down accusatory note vs sebas in the minutes?
16:19:35 <wstephenson> done, i think.
16:19:36 <llunak> discussed on the list
16:19:44 <wstephenson> do you know how to upload it to the site?
16:20:00 <llunak> Beineri told me
16:20:06 <llunak> * javier_ announce and run a bug triage
16:20:23 <javier_> not done
16:20:56 <javier_> i'm waiting to get someone from upstream to help me since it's my first time
16:21:11 <javier_> as wstephenson told me
16:21:11 <llunak> * wstephenson see if rpmlint warnings can be hung on a lime tree for easy plucking
16:21:22 <wstephenson> not done
16:21:37 <llunak> wstephenson: you have contacted somebody from upstream already, right?
16:21:59 <wstephenson> llunak: i've had 2 discussions with blauzahl
16:22:14 <wstephenson> and she hasn't contacted javier_
16:22:34 <wstephenson> and darioandres retired
16:22:41 <llunak> we should be able to handle this ourselves too if needed, but that might be only post 11.3 then because of akademy
16:22:52 <javier_> wstephenson: if it's not possible, it's ok. i could try it myself
16:23:23 <llunak> * wstephenson mail list about meeting times
16:23:25 <llunak> ws
16:23:39 <llunak> was this about choosing a different meeting time if needed?
16:23:58 <wstephenson> so yes
16:23:59 <wstephenson> yes
16:24:02 <wstephenson> sorry, not done
16:24:18 <llunak> * lunak,wstephenson document how-to-maintain Extra
16:24:27 <llunak> part of the next topic, kind of done
16:24:51 <llunak> so, the highlight of today's show, ladies and gentlemen
16:25:22 <llunak> #topic Repository reorganisation conclusio
16:25:26 <llunak> #topic Repository reorganisation conclusion
16:25:47 <llunak> http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/RepositoryRenaming
16:26:03 <llunak> I suggest everybody opens this page and we'll go over it
16:26:27 <tittiatcoke> Ok
16:26:36 <tigerfoot> done ...
16:26:44 <llunak> so, let's find answers for the questions
16:26:51 <llunak> * What should <DISTRO> stand for?
16:27:11 <llunak> most people voted Distro, there's also SUSE as an interesting option
16:27:51 <dirk> I like SUSE as well
16:27:57 <tittiatcoke> +1
16:27:59 <dirk> it is also shorter than distro :-)
16:28:03 <tigerfoot> +1
16:28:10 <wstephenson> and clear about what the packages mean
16:28:12 <llunak> but it's upper-case >:)
16:28:31 <rabauke> +1
16:28:31 <tigerfoot> ose can be more shorter with (*) stand for openSUSE
16:28:32 <wstephenson> SuSE?
16:28:33 <cb400f> and it's not as good alphabetically :-)
16:28:39 <llunak> seriously, I don't see the advantage over Distro, but I'm find with both
16:28:57 <wstephenson> llunak: all my suggestions are about being semantically clear
16:29:04 <llunak> so we go with SUSE?
16:29:04 <wstephenson> and distro is just a pointer
16:29:11 <rabauke> it includes a hint that whatever follows is not upstream kde.
16:29:27 <llunak> somebody seriously against?
16:29:35 <dirk> llunak: against what? Distro?
16:29:40 <llunak> SUSE
16:29:43 <tigerfoot> should we not stick on what others are doing in obs like http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/server:/OpenGroupware/ ?
16:30:41 <dirk> llunak: well, I don't mind either way
16:30:42 <cb400f> I'm almost seriously against :-/
16:30:45 <llunak> tigerfoot: what are they doing there so special?
16:30:53 <cb400f> people might think it's for sle
16:30:53 <dirk> SUSE is no more like openSUSE like Distro is like openSUSE
16:30:59 <dirk> to me it doesn't make a difference
16:31:05 <rabauke> OOo puts whatever upstream stable version exists into STABLE, so we so not comply with that anyway.
16:31:14 <dirk> cb400f: true, people might consider SUSE to be SLE, not openSUSE
16:31:17 <javier_> Distro is ok
16:31:48 <dirk> llunak: we have 5 votes for distro and 4 for SUSE
16:31:51 <tigerfoot> llunak: they have the distro name and after that the product, but forget, it doesn't apply to kde ...
16:32:05 <llunak> ok, everybody just write +Distro or +SUSE and I'll sum up
16:32:11 <wstephenson> cb400f: we do have SLE repos though.
16:32:17 <dirk> +Distro
16:32:23 <llunak> +Distro
16:32:26 <ctrippe> +Distro
16:32:27 <cb400f> +Distro
16:32:29 <wstephenson> it's still in the OBS, anyone looking for real SLE software should be shot by theirC IO
16:32:31 <wstephenson> +SUSE
16:32:35 <javier_> +Distro
16:32:36 <tittiatcoke> +SUSE
16:32:47 <tigerfoot> +openSUSE ( so SUSE)
16:32:57 <kdepepo> +Windows7
16:33:07 <javier_> +1
16:33:14 <llunak> 10 seconds for slow typists ...
16:33:26 <herby> +SUSE
16:33:34 <wstephenson> cmon SUSE, run boy run!
16:33:39 <krop> +Distro
16:33:48 <llunak> 6:4 for Distro
16:34:02 <dirk> yippie!
16:34:08 <dirk> finally a decision..
16:34:14 <dirk> lets move on..
16:34:22 <dirk> KDE:Backports or KDE:UpdatedApplications
16:34:29 <llunak> not really listed as a question, but there's an alternative name proposal for Backports
16:34:30 <tigerfoot> dirk: but we will come back to the v12 :-)
16:35:13 <llunak> I perso a
16:35:29 <wstephenson> go on, slow typist :)
16:35:31 <llunak> I personally think a bit hackerish name isn't a big deal
16:35:32 <dirk> I still prefer Backports - it is consistent to what it was in the past, and there was on strong reason to change it
16:35:41 <rabauke> +UpdatedApplications since nobody knows what backports is and the whole renaming does not make sense if it is not meant to make the repos more understandable for the users. devs know them anyway.
16:36:08 <javier_> updatedapplications,.. which ones?
16:36:09 <wstephenson> dirk: i suspect the people who don't understand backports aren't participating in the discussion
16:36:21 <wstephenson> rabauke: thank you, that's my point.
16:36:41 <tittiatcoke> I agree with Rabauke.
16:36:50 <wstephenson> i am also open to equivalent suggestions
16:36:59 <dirk> so is everyone fine with UpdatedApplications?
16:37:00 <wstephenson> KDE:Updates is confusable with online updates
16:37:06 <cb400f> Apps is shorter :-)
16:37:12 <llunak> I'd shorten it at least to Apps
16:37:16 <dirk> one thing that bothers me is that Applications is a difficult name to type right
16:37:26 <wstephenson> true
16:37:27 <tittiatcoke> Apps should be ok :-)
16:37:27 <llunak> and it may possibly create confusion with online update
16:37:42 <dirk> so KDE:Apps or KDE:UpdatedApps?
16:37:43 <tigerfoot> LastestVersionForYourStableKdeOpensuse ? (a bit long but make sense :-))
16:38:07 * javier_ prefers backports
16:38:08 <ctrippe> UpdatedApps
16:38:15 <tittiatcoke> +UpdatedApps
16:38:19 * saschpe prefers backports too
16:38:29 <rabauke> tigerfoot: that's why I suggested a systemsettings GUI because IMHO it is the only way to get understandable and safe repo handling for the users.
16:38:42 <wstephenson> I hope the Update_d_ Apps makes it clear that it is not online updates
16:38:56 <wstephenson> javier_, saschpe: why?
16:39:01 <tigerfoot> I think backport is not a wrong choice, the wikipedia def clarify it quite well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backport
16:39:19 <wstephenson> tigerfoot: why use a term that needs explanation though?
16:39:28 <rabauke> people do not read wikipedia when they open yast's repo module
16:39:31 <saschpe> wstephenson: it's a term that is used across a wide distro selection and I'd say that users that manage to find _and_ enable that repository know what they want
16:39:37 <rabauke> they do not even read the opensuse wiki
16:39:47 <dirk> wstephenson: Backports is also a term used in the Debian or Fedora world
16:39:54 <dirk> wstephenson: UpdatedApps is not
16:39:54 <javier_> saschpe: exacty, my point. it's more clear
16:39:55 <rabauke> they just use urls they find in forums or mailinglists
16:39:58 <wstephenson> saschpe: hopefully we will make it a lot easier to find and enable than it is now.
16:40:07 <tigerfoot> dirk: thanks thats what I want to explain ...
16:40:07 <javier_> updatedapps also needs clarification
16:40:12 <saschpe> wstephenson: have less repositories then :-)
16:40:51 <llunak> ok, let's do the vote : +Backports, +UpdatedApps
16:40:57 <wstephenson> dirk: we should aim to include users who are not fluent with Debian or Fedora
16:41:03 <rabauke> +UpdatedApps
16:41:05 * saschpe +Backports
16:41:07 <javier_> +backports
16:41:11 <wstephenson> +UpdatedApps
16:41:15 <tittiatcoke> +UpdatedApps
16:41:18 <krop> +UpdatedApps
16:41:18 <tigerfoot> +Backports
16:41:20 <dirk> +Backports
16:41:28 <ctrippe> +UpdatedApps
16:41:58 * cb400f is torn
16:42:06 <llunak> 10 ... 9 ...
16:42:21 <llunak> you can abstain ... I do here
16:42:22 <dirk> wstephenson: google: 2.2 million hits for backports, 2nd hit is explaining it. updatedapps 300000, and it points to apple itunes
16:42:34 <wstephenson> dirk: because it doesn't need explanation
16:42:36 <javier_> Apple iTunes :D
16:42:37 <saschpe> how do gnome repos and others handle backports?
16:42:50 <javier_> the term backport is standard
16:43:03 <wstephenson> among a small population
16:43:05 <rabauke> if we start that way we can also discuss the usage of  STABLE repos.
16:43:07 <javier_> what are updatedapps? they are backports of blabla
16:43:11 <saschpe> either way it should be done the same way across all repos
16:43:15 <tigerfoot> gnome is Backport ..
16:43:19 <dirk> wstephenson: well, but 2.2 million vs 300000 also shows which one is more frequent in use
16:43:26 <tigerfoot> http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/GNOME:/Backports:/
16:43:27 <saschpe> that's what I've guessed
16:43:28 <rabauke> almost everybody else uses is for upstream versions.
16:44:09 <dirk> okay, so we're 4:4 ?
16:44:10 <wstephenson> dirk: are you sure you're not measuring the frequency of explanation of the term?
16:44:16 <ctrippe> tigerfoot: That are no backported apps
16:44:25 <llunak> well, 5:4 for updatedapps if I'm counting correctly
16:44:32 <rabauke> they are just new builds. backports are patches
16:44:47 <tigerfoot> ctrippe: so they confuse people also :-) ( I rarely goes there ... )
16:44:51 <dirk> wstephenson: no
16:44:53 <wstephenson> and GNOME:Backports contains the platform too
16:45:13 <dirk> wstephenson: for example, searching for news on "UpdatedApps" gives
16:45:21 <dirk> wstephenson: "Updated Apps* - Lists all the apps that are updated each day"
16:45:34 <llunak> I think updatedapps is technically fine too
16:46:15 <llunak> ok, let's go with that one
16:46:24 <wstephenson> dirk: to me as a native speaker it's clear without explanation. i don't buy the argument that googlish is our lingua franca
16:46:44 <llunak> * stable repo name
16:46:48 <wstephenson> however if it really looks wrong to non-native speakers, then its a problem
16:47:11 <llunak> there's "stable", "released", "supported"
16:47:13 <dirk> wstephenson: no, it sounds a bit verbose, but thats fine
16:47:29 <Chani> what does "backports" actually mean?
16:48:12 <wstephenson> "stable" has the existing problem that nobody knows if it's KDE's stable or SUSE's stable.
16:48:18 <wstephenson> "released" is the same
16:48:27 <Chani> I'm getting the impression that suse's definition of backports is not the same as mine :)
16:48:35 <cb400f> new apps for old distro :-)
16:48:38 <tigerfoot> Chani: new version compiled to the old desktop ...
16:48:56 <tigerfoot> new apps version  ..
16:48:57 <wstephenson> "supported" i hope links to the established idea that suse supports things
16:49:00 <Chani> tigerfoot: what if it's the desktop that I'm upgrading? :)
16:49:21 <llunak> Chani: that's not what that repo contains
16:49:27 <wstephenson> Chani: KDE:Backports (the current naming) contains only application updates, no main modules
16:49:28 <krop> I don't find "supported" better
16:49:32 <dirk> Chani: while the discussion is interesting (and you have a good point), can we stick to the current topic until the meeting is over, please?
16:49:41 <Chani> dirk: oh right, sorry
16:49:49 <dirk> Chani: note I agree with you that we used Backports incorrectly,
16:49:58 <cb400f> is it actually supported? I thought there might be unreleased patches and such
16:50:01 <wstephenson> of course if you had chosen SUSE for <DISTRO> Supported would give KDE:SUSE:Supported which is pretty clear IMO.
16:50:04 <rabauke> +supported since STABLE is used by most others for upstream stable releases, e.g. Openoffice etc.
16:50:27 <wstephenson> cb400f: technically it is supported or imminently supported :)
16:50:54 <dirk> wstephenson: but KDE:Distro:Stable still indicates that it is the stable distro, not the stable KDE release
16:51:10 <tigerfoot> don't like supported but stable compared to others is misleading in kde/opensuse ...
16:51:27 <dirk> tigerfoot: but we rename from KDE:STable to KDE:Distro:Stable
16:51:33 <wstephenson> dirk: ack
16:51:52 <wstephenson> KDE:Distro:Supported works too
16:52:04 <dirk> yep
16:52:05 <tigerfoot> dirk: ah yes, I already forget Distro ...
16:52:19 * tigerfoot mv SUSE DISTRO ...
16:52:23 * wstephenson hands out Ritalin, since llunak already told him to focus
16:52:26 <llunak> my problem with supported is that users might get funny ideas about the extent to which it is supported
16:52:49 <tigerfoot> llunak: agree with that ...
16:52:54 <wstephenson> counterproposal?
16:52:58 <llunak> it is a community distro, not SLE
16:53:08 <llunak> I find stable ok
16:53:19 <tittiatcoke> +Stable
16:53:36 <rabauke> +supported
16:53:37 <llunak> any further discussion here?
16:53:53 <dirk> no, lets vote
16:54:02 <llunak> ok, vote
16:54:09 <cb400f> +Stable
16:54:09 <dirk> +Stable
16:54:11 <krop> +Stable
16:54:12 <herby> +Stable
16:54:14 <llunak> +Stable
16:54:15 <tittiatcoke> +Stable
16:54:16 <ctrippe> +Stable
16:54:18 <tigerfoot> Released ? KDE:Distro:Released so when we release 4.4.5 for example its clear ?
16:54:20 <wstephenson> bah :)
16:54:27 <wstephenson> +Marble
16:54:32 <tigerfoot> :-)
16:54:37 <llunak> I think this one is clear
16:54:53 <llunak> although KDE:Distro:Marble is tempting :)
16:55:15 <llunak> * Should it be grouped together with the stable and development repository?
16:55:15 <tigerfoot> Miracle can work too ...
16:55:20 <llunak> (snapshots repo)
16:55:52 <wstephenson> llunak: you missed out what 'it' means.
16:56:01 <llunak> it = snapshots repo
16:56:05 <wstephenson> * Upstream snapshots repository -  Should it be grouped together with the stable and development repository?
16:56:16 <wstephenson> examples
16:56:22 <tigerfoot> this one I really prefer the wstephenson proposal KDE:Unstable:SC
16:56:27 <krop> (was KKFD discussed already ?)
16:56:28 <wstephenson> grouped: KDE:Distro:Snapshots
16:56:38 <wstephenson> ungrouped: KDE:Snapshots
16:56:53 <rabauke> ungrouped since it does not include the distro patches
16:56:55 <wstephenson> krop: 2nd point in the wiki page, no discussion
16:57:14 <krop> ah.. I thought that's the worse name, nm
16:57:31 <llunak> krop: there are not questions about KKFD, consensus seems to be clear on KDE:Distro:Factory
16:58:03 <krop> ok, back on the snapshots then
16:58:03 <llunak> ok, maybe let's do this differently
16:58:20 <wstephenson> so please consider my proposal for this point, KDE:Unstable:SC together with the next suggestion, that unstable apps go into KDE:Unstable
16:58:33 <llunak> besides the unstable stuff, there is only KDE:Extra and the capitalization question, which both seem to have  clear result
16:58:57 <llunak> so questions related to snapshots and playground is the remaining group
16:58:58 <wstephenson> sorry i misquoted myself
16:59:08 <wstephenson> KDE:Unstable:Extra + KDE:Unstable:SC
16:59:35 <llunak> wstephenson: that is missing the apps that are in kkfd/updatedapps
16:59:52 <cb400f> kde:unstable:extra replaces kde:playground?
16:59:58 <llunak> where would unstable digikam go?
17:00:08 <wstephenson> KDE:Unstable:Apps?
17:00:17 <wstephenson> cb400f: no, see below
17:00:27 <wstephenson> cb400f: "Playground Repository"
17:00:35 <remur_030> heya, could someone hit me with a log snapshot please =)
17:00:58 <krop> KDE:Unstable:Main (for what we have in KDE/) KDE:Unstable:Extra for extragear/playground stuff
17:01:30 <krop> but that may become irrelevant once upstream switches to git
17:01:40 <llunak> #save
17:01:53 <wstephenson> remur_030: http://pastebin.com/spam.php?i=58CdH9QK
17:02:23 <wstephenson> krop: so "Main" answers the question "only SC?" with "No"?
17:02:33 <remur_030> thanks!
17:02:37 <wstephenson> remur_030: http://pastebin.com/58CdH9QK
17:02:48 <krop> I don't like all these marketing decisions
17:03:02 <wstephenson> ooh, dirty word!
17:03:10 * dirk is seriously confused about the discussion now
17:03:13 <wstephenson> it's not marketing, it's usability :)
17:03:26 <llunak> let's start with something simpler -do we have a separate (sub) repo for just KDE SC snapshots?
17:03:51 <llunak> meaning, will we
17:03:58 * tigerfoot join dirk in the dark ....
17:04:09 * saschpe searches for lighters
17:04:31 <wstephenson> llunak: your reasons for and against?
17:04:34 <llunak> that is the "Should it contain only KDE SC snapshots or also other KDE software." question
17:04:34 <remur_030> llunak: except unstable?
17:04:39 <tittiatcoke> What would be the alternative ? To push everything in one repo ? Playground joins Unstable ?
17:05:03 <saschpe> playground joins unstable sounds sensible as it is after all unstable :-)
17:05:25 <llunak> let's put it differently, once more:
17:05:26 <wstephenson> saschpe: well in KDE SVN we have a distinction between trunk and playground
17:05:40 <saschpe> extragear can join the rest of KDE as there are pretty important apps in there and Git will kill that distinction anyway
17:06:04 <llunak> we can have 1, 2 or 3 repos, for unstable stuff, 1 - KDE SC, 2 - unstable UpdatedApps (i.e. apps from kkfd), 3 - whatever else unstable
17:06:15 <saschpe> wstephenson: i know but playground doesn't have that much apps that really deserve packaging
17:06:34 <llunak> so the question is, how much do we join these and what the structure and naming will be
17:06:45 <llunak> let me split into separate questions
17:06:51 <wstephenson> saschpe: OBS KDE:Playground contains lots of deserving apps from eg kde-apps.org..
17:07:15 <llunak> separate repo for kde sc snapshots - the wiki page seems to have quite a consensus on this being yes
17:07:33 <llunak> questions on this, or can we conclude this as yes?
17:07:38 <tittiatcoke> +1
17:08:01 <krop> +1
17:08:03 <llunak> tittiatcoke and dirk get 2 votes here :)
17:08:08 <wstephenson> :)
17:08:09 <tigerfoot> +1 with KDE:Unstable:SC
17:08:16 <saschpe> wstephenson: but most kde-apps stuff will never move into trunk, so they stay in KDE:Playground forever?
17:08:20 <rabauke> so if a user adds that repo he might get conflicts because KDE app xy depends on a lower KDE version?
17:08:54 <llunak> rabauke: kde apps generally shouldn't have a maximum version requirement
17:09:11 <rabauke> ok
17:09:30 <wstephenson> saschpe: no, but once they are stably packaged they can move into KDE:Distro:Factory
17:09:30 <llunak> ok, so this seems to be clear for now, next question
17:09:43 <cb400f> or kde:extra
17:09:45 <wstephenson> yeah
17:10:12 * saschpe has currently 7 repositories that start with 'KDE' enabled and doesn't like it
17:10:26 <llunak> the rest of unstable stuff - do we have just another repo for whatever unstable, or do we split further? (one reason why I'm asking is because KDE:Unstable:Extra will be confusing because of not matching KDE:Extra)
17:10:49 <tittiatcoke> I would go for KDE:Unstable:Apps
17:11:02 <llunak> the logical thing here seems to be just one unstable repo for non-SC stuff
17:11:09 <tittiatcoke> +1
17:11:25 <saschpe> +1
17:11:42 <rabauke> +1
17:11:43 <ctrippe_> +1
17:11:55 <llunak> so the remaining question is naming/structure
17:11:57 <wstephenson> llunak: i proposed KDE:Unstable:Extra and KDE:Development instead of KDE:Extra for that reason
17:11:58 <rabauke> unstable already includes the "playground" hint
17:12:27 <llunak> wstephenson: development may suggest is has -devel stuff
17:12:53 <wstephenson> ok so one KDE:Unstable:Apps
17:13:09 <llunak> so let's just throw a couple of proposals, just to see - I'd suggest KDE:Unstable:SC and KDE:Unstable:<good name for the other repo here>
17:13:32 <wstephenson> would it have as repos all of KDE:Unstable:SC, KDE:Distro:Factory, KDE:Distro:Stable?
17:13:33 <tigerfoot> when I see KDE:Unstable:Apps I understand this is App for the unstable SC release ...
17:14:01 <ctrippe_> Will KDE:Unstable:Apps replace Playground?
17:14:17 <wstephenson> ctrippe_: i think that's what llunak meant at 19:11
17:14:23 <llunak> I don't like apps because it might have non-apps stuff too, let's say I put Kor there, which is more like a desktop than an app
17:14:45 <llunak> ctrippe_: yes, we're discussing the new name for playground name
17:14:46 <dirk> llunak: I agree. why not Extra then?
17:14:53 <herby> I don't like Factory here, Next sounds better
17:14:59 <llunak> the current naming is KDE:UNSTABLE:Desktop and KDE:Playground
17:15:03 <wstephenson> so, what do we think of "KDE:Unstable:Extra"?
17:15:10 <tittiatcoke> I guess that tigerfoot is also correct that if we keep KDE:Unstable:<good name>, it will always seems it belongs to KDE:Unstable:SC
17:15:13 <wstephenson> herby: Factory is a reserved term :)
17:15:28 <llunak> wstephenson: conflict with KDE:Extra
17:15:32 <ctrippe_> llunak: wstephenson Ok, I only wanted to make sure that I understood everyting correct
17:15:47 <dirk> KDE:Extra:Unstable ?
17:15:59 <tittiatcoke> I would go along with that one :-)
17:16:09 <llunak> dirk: then digikam is not in KDE:Extra but is in KDE:Extra:Unstable
17:16:40 <wstephenson> llunak: now i'm confused, i thought you just proposed dropping KDE:Extra in favour of KDE:Unstable:Extra
17:16:58 <llunak> huh, KDE:Extra is stable
17:17:13 <cb400f> so if a user wants amarok beta.. he adds kde:unstable:<good name>/opensuse_11.3_Stable/
17:17:21 <llunak> to make it clear again - we are not discussing what is now called KKUD and Playground
17:17:33 <wstephenson> agh kill me now, i misunderstood the whole section when commenting the wiki
17:17:36 <llunak> damn, "we are now"
17:17:53 <tittiatcoke> :-)
17:18:10 <llunak> backports, extra (old community), stable, factory is already decided
17:18:14 * tigerfoot kill wstephenson has he ask it :-) don't like this job :-))
17:18:20 <llunak> we have the 2 unstable repos remaining
17:18:53 <llunak> for those we already decided that we will have one for KDE SC snapshots and one for everything else unstable
17:18:56 <cb400f> I don't like moving kde:playground into kde:unstable:something
17:19:16 <cb400f> many people will want some "playground" stuff with stable or factory
17:19:19 * tigerfoot see that llunak has a good strong rope to navigate in repo :-)
17:19:21 * wstephenson does
17:19:33 <llunak> so the remaining question is name of kde sc snapshots repo and playground name repo (including their place in the structure)
17:19:40 <wstephenson> cb400f: and we could build KDE:Unstable:GoodName vs Stable and Factory
17:20:22 <cb400f> that means no stable apps for unstable sc :-)
17:21:13 <llunak> one solution is to have KDE:Snapshots and KDE:Playground
17:21:23 <wstephenson> cb400f: it doesn't exclude building KDE:Extra vs KDE:Unstable:SC
17:21:35 <llunak> second is KDE:Unstable:Snapshots (or SC) and KDE:Unstable:<something>
17:22:33 <tittiatcoke> personally I would rather go for the first option. At least the KDE:Playground is not grouped with KDE:Snapshots
17:22:36 <llunak> having KDE:Snapshots and KDE:Extra:Unstable is an option too, but there I see the problem that kkfd apps, such as digikam, would not be in KDE:Extra but would be in KDE:Extra:Unstable
17:22:54 * wstephenson is for the latter option
17:22:57 <wstephenson> we just need a good name
17:23:20 <wstephenson> i agree with dirk's point that the distinction is thin
17:23:21 <tigerfoot> so under KDE:Unstable: we have all stuff marked as unstable ... ?
17:23:43 <llunak> tigerfoot: that's an option
17:24:01 <tigerfoot> SC (kde5), Apps (like digikam)  ...
17:24:11 <remur_030> I am not sure I can follow, but shouldn't we try reducing the amount of repositories?
17:24:11 <rabauke> wstephenson: a released version of digikam would be in a repo named unstable?
17:24:23 <wstephenson> rabauke: no
17:24:24 <remur_030> erm projects in obs terms
17:24:41 <wstephenson> rabauke: you're confusing things. released digikam would be in KDE:Extras.
17:24:52 <tigerfoot> rabauke: as I understand it's goes in KDE:Distro:Stable
17:24:55 <wstephenson> snapshots of unreleased digikam would be in KDE:Unstable:Goodname
17:25:02 <cb400f> released digikam should be in kde:updatedapps
17:25:03 <rabauke> wstephenson: ok that makes sense
17:25:05 <tigerfoot> damned ... wstephenson as right ...
17:25:16 <cb400f> question is where it's built for unstable:sc
17:25:16 <llunak> remur_030: I think we cannot go below 6 for what we want, since I think it's good to have KDE SC separately from all the playground stuff
17:25:36 <llunak> it doesn't matter for that it is built
17:25:48 <llunak> any repo can be built for any other repo if necessary
17:25:57 <wstephenson> cb400f: add a KDE:Unstable:SC repo on the KDE:Extra project
17:26:06 <wstephenson> so let's think of Goodname
17:26:08 <llunak> kde:updatedapp can build for kde:Snaphot for all I care
17:26:09 <wstephenson> Stuff
17:26:17 <remur_030> llunak: ah ok, it's just looking like dependencies go cross alot of projects here
17:26:39 <wstephenson> remur_030: let's discuss that separately
17:27:14 <wstephenson> we have some options there
17:27:17 <llunak> ok, so I posted 3 options above, with <something> to be filled in, other proposals?
17:27:40 <wstephenson> how do we express "Non-SC Stuff"?
17:28:01 <krop> not using SC at all is an interesting option
17:28:15 <llunak> we could possibly have KDE:Unstable:SC and KDE:Unstable for the rest
17:28:45 <tittiatcoke> Sounds logical
17:28:46 <wstephenson> llunak: yeah i think i considered that too
17:29:18 <wstephenson> any more schemes?
17:29:57 <llunak> ok, let me put numbers to the proposals and then we vote
17:30:09 <llunak> 1) KDE:Snapshot, KDE:Playground
17:30:31 <llunak> 2) KDE:Unstable:SC, KDE:Unstable:<something>
17:30:38 <llunak> 3) KDE:Unstable:SC, KDE:Unstable
17:30:51 <llunak> 4) KDE:Snapshot, KDE:Extra:Unstable
17:31:07 <llunak> ok, vote now
17:31:09 * wstephenson votes 2
17:31:10 <krop> 4
17:31:12 <wstephenson> no no
17:31:13 <wstephenson> shit
17:31:18 * wstephenson votes 3
17:31:27 * tittiatcoke votes 3
17:31:36 <cb400f> 1
17:31:58 <dirk> 4
17:31:58 <llunak> 3
17:32:03 <ctrippe_> 3
17:32:03 <herby> 3
17:32:15 <wstephenson> dirk: ? this is your territory
17:32:32 <dirk> I'm fine with 3 as well
17:32:43 <javier_> 2
17:32:50 <dirk> though it is completely different than what we did before
17:33:26 <llunak> I wonder if people wont' get a bit confused with a repo that contains both packages and a subrepo for 3
17:33:40 <dirk> llunak: yep, my fear as well
17:33:44 <dirk> it is confusing
17:33:46 <wstephenson> hopefully they won't see URLs much
17:34:08 <tigerfoot> wstephenson: I see url ... as I synchronize mirror :-)
17:34:22 <dirk> well, those who don't see the url don't care about the repository name :-)
17:34:26 <wstephenson> tigerfoot: corner case
17:34:43 <llunak> hmm .. maybe let's do this only as a structure vote - KDE:Playground can stand for KDE:<anything>
17:35:04 <dirk> llunak: then 1) and 4) is the same
17:35:16 <llunak> 4 is in a different place
17:35:57 <remur_030> wstephenson: fregl was quite confused today looking at the urls
17:36:01 <tigerfoot> my vote KDE:Unstable:SC  + KDE:<anything but Playground>
17:36:47 <llunak> please vote again, the right-most part of each repo name is a variable  (i.e. by voting for 1) you do not vote for the name to be KDE:Playground but maybe KDE:foo too)
17:37:02 <wstephenson> 3
17:37:17 <dirk> 1
17:37:19 <ctrippe_> 1
17:37:29 <krop> 1
17:37:35 <tittiatcoke> 1
17:37:56 <llunak> 1
17:38:07 <tigerfoot> 3 first part, 1 second part
17:38:14 <wstephenson> great, now define $foo $bar :)
17:38:41 <llunak> tigerfoot: that's 1, basically
17:38:44 * dirk is confused by the outcome of the vote
17:39:01 <tigerfoot> no 3 ... most important is KDE:Unstable:SC
17:39:02 <dirk> so most people like KDE:Unstable:SC, KDE:<anything>
17:39:28 <dirk> so lets settle for KDE:Unstable:SC now
17:39:34 <llunak> KDE:<anything for sc>, KDE:<anything for rest>, to be precise
17:39:38 * tigerfoot really don't understand ... but agree ...
17:39:51 <tittiatcoke> +1 for KDE:Unstable:SC
17:39:59 <dirk> +1
17:40:03 <tigerfoot> +1 KDE:Unstable:SC
17:40:29 <krop> +1 KDE:whatever_without_SC
17:40:44 <llunak> so you want SC to be in KDE:Unstable:SC and the rest in e.g. KDE:Playground ?
17:41:04 <llunak> now I am confused :)
17:41:21 <herby> +1 KDE:Unstable:SC
17:41:42 <wstephenson> dirk: i understood the outcome of the penultimate vote to be 1) KDEnapshot, KDElayground
17:41:44 <cb400f> I still don't understand where an unstable:sc user is supposed to find all the apps that exist in kkud today, but are not part of sc
17:41:49 <wstephenson> oh fsck these emoticons
17:42:44 <llunak> cb400f: both repo enabled, sc wins by having newer versions?
17:43:09 <cb400f> today amarok is in kkud.. but of course it won't be in unstable:sc
17:43:24 <llunak> tittiatcoke, dirk: ?
17:43:31 <wstephenson> cb400f: an amarok snapshot would be in KDE:<Playground>
17:43:54 <cb400f> so someone will make weekly snapshots of every app in factory all of a sudden?
17:44:03 <cb400f> (non-sc app)
17:44:30 <dirk> llunak: it seems people prefer KDE:Unstable:SC over KDE:Snapshot for (weekly snapshots of SC)
17:44:44 <dirk> llunak: so I wanted to settle that first. we can discuss KDE:Playground vs the-rest later
17:45:10 <dirk> llunak: for me, KDE:Unstable:SC is a bit of a  misnomer as we don't actually know (formally) what is part of the SC until it is actually released
17:45:22 <dirk> so is kdepim in or out of KDE:Unstable:SC - you don't know
17:45:40 <tittiatcoke> dirk: I guess that the discussion is now what we are going to put in KDE:Unstable:SC. Would we have there just the kde tarballs or would we also place there applications like amarok ?
17:46:31 <wstephenson> i'm going to have to leave
17:46:37 <dirk> tittiatcoke: well, if the unstable SC snapshots are built so that they can be installed in parallel, it does not matter
17:46:57 <wstephenson> but others do most of the KKUD work so i trust you to come up with a good scheme/name combination.
17:46:58 <tittiatcoke> dirk: True, but that would mean you need Factory and Snapshots enabled
17:47:16 <dirk> tittiatcoke: which does not hurt as long as both packages don't overlap
17:47:29 <dirk> it is dangerous though in case of packaging mistakes
17:47:43 * dirk has to leave as well..
17:47:51 <dirk> how about we postpone this part of the discussion?
17:48:01 <dirk> I think we made great progress already today, the rest needs one more night to sleepover
17:48:09 <tittiatcoke> Yup. Sounds good.
17:48:11 <wstephenson> k
17:48:19 <rabauke> +1
17:49:00 <wstephenson> llunak: next topic?
17:49:11 <dirk> ok, who wants teh action item of updating the page to the current decided state and the outstanding items?
17:50:27 <dirk> it seems we lost llunak
17:50:36 <llunak> i'm back, sorry
17:50:55 <llunak> ok, we'll postpone the unstable discussion
17:51:05 <llunak> we can already proceed with what we have
17:51:58 <llunak> so, I have created http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Backports_Repository and http://en.opensuse.org/KDE/Extra_Repository
17:52:25 <llunak> #topic UpdatedApps repository
17:53:24 <llunak> what I'll do is update the maintainers list for the UpdatedApps repo
17:53:47 <llunak> and then maintainers can set it up with all the links
17:54:08 <llunak> BTW, I think it's better to link KKFD directly rather than o:F
17:54:32 <cb400f> yes, faster updates :-)
17:54:49 <llunak> I know I've already asked at least twice, but maintainers, please raise your hands now
17:55:01 <wstephenson> hand
17:55:10 <llunak> also, is it nececessary to add something to the page?
17:55:17 <tittiatcoke> \o/
17:55:27 <wstephenson> llunak: change the description, you mean?
17:55:46 <llunak> content - e.g. is it enough to say osc linkrev?
17:56:04 <llunak> or should an example be added
17:56:14 <wstephenson> example, or i will find a way to fsck it up
17:56:18 <wstephenson> ;)
17:56:25 <llunak> ok
17:56:35 <llunak> so that's all for this repo
17:56:41 <llunak> #topic Extra repository
17:56:46 <llunak> basically the same here
17:57:01 <wstephenson> \o/
17:57:07 <tittiatcoke> \o/
17:57:14 <llunak> we will copy packages from KDE:KDE4:Community as deemed appropriate
17:57:31 <llunak> and somewhen later the old repos will be nuked
17:57:32 <tittiatcoke> I believe that bitshuffler also volunteerd for maintainership here
17:57:59 <llunak> AI: llunak write a summary about UpdatedApps and Extra repositories to the list
17:58:13 <llunak> AI: llunak update status about repository reorganization
17:58:25 * dirk drops off, sorry
17:58:43 <tigerfoot> llunak: add a directory layout ( like the tree output )
17:58:52 <llunak> ?
17:59:01 <wstephenson> a diagram
17:59:16 <llunak> ah
17:59:29 <tigerfoot> llunak: do the mkdir, lauch tree on that so we can better understand where things goes ...
17:59:36 <tigerfoot> wstephenson: yeap a diagram :-)
17:59:45 <llunak> any other AI here?
18:00:40 <tigerfoot> seems not ...
18:00:49 <llunak> #topic misc, Q&A
18:01:12 <tigerfoot> +1 for constant Capitalization ...
18:01:25 <wstephenson> so thanks everyone for their contributions
18:01:28 <llunak> oh, I haven't given op rights to the meetbot, that's why the topic doesn't update ... :-/
18:01:52 <wstephenson> javier_ has done great work with the unstable-live cd and various bugfixes
18:02:02 * tigerfoot kick off ...
18:02:25 <javier_> not really, some small details
18:02:45 <wstephenson> marcus also picking up distribution dev tasks
18:02:55 <reddwarf> I arrived late, was the default apps thing talked about?
18:03:02 <wstephenson> of course not possible without a good KKUD, we know who to thank about that :)
18:03:15 <tittiatcoke> :-)
18:03:15 <rabauke> I did not blog last week becaue there was not that much to blog about and I did not have anything "personal" to write about KDE. This week I do, so I'll need some info on what you did within the last fortnight.
18:03:15 <llunak> reddwarf: no, I'll try to do it on the list
18:03:23 <wstephenson> rabauke: cool, thank you
18:03:29 <llunak> reddwarf: but basically I think we need to talk to upstream about the technical details
18:03:52 <wstephenson> oh can we talk about covering the channel and community over the next couple of weeks?
18:04:11 <wstephenson> i'll probably be out of the office and sporadically online at best
18:04:23 <wstephenson> and llunak and dirk are at akademy soonish
18:04:28 <tittiatcoke> I will be on holidays from the 3rd of July till 27th
18:04:34 <wstephenson> very nice :)
18:04:41 <reddwarf> not that I have any great idea to improve the current system, but yes, perhaps that would help
18:05:27 <llunak> reddwarf: otherwise I agree with the suggestions for the defaults, so the best thing to do there would be to patch the .desktop file for now, where possible
18:05:29 <wstephenson> can whoever is left please pickup any slack in welcoming new folk?
18:05:46 <rabauke> don't we always do ;)
18:05:53 <wstephenson> sure
18:06:08 <wstephenson> just don't point them to ppl who are probably not going to be responsive
18:06:14 <rabauke> ok
18:06:36 <wstephenson> i hope 11.3 is in good shape now
18:06:44 <llunak> next meeting in 2 weeks, which is akademy, so I don't know if I'll be available for it
18:07:20 <llunak> ok, thanks for attending
18:07:23 <llunak> #endmeeting