16:09:42 <wstephenson> #startmeeting
16:09:42 <bugbot> Meeting started Thu Sep 30 16:09:42 2010 UTC.  The chair is wstephenson. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:09:42 <bugbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
16:10:17 <wstephenson> this one is going to be pretty short so i'll just run it, anyone want to do minutes?
16:10:45 * tigerfoot sorry have to leave in 10minutes
16:11:25 <wstephenson> np
16:11:31 <wstephenson> so, where are we
16:11:32 <remur_030> wstephenson: I'll take the mintes
16:11:35 <wstephenson> agenda:
16:11:41 <wstephenson> * old action items
16:11:43 <wstephenson> remur_030: thanks
16:11:49 <wstephenson> * status report
16:11:55 <wstephenson> * Lubos' move to OOo team
16:12:00 <wstephenson> * Dev Days ticket giveaway
16:12:05 <wstephenson> * Q&A, misc
16:12:12 <wstephenson> any late agenda items?
16:12:45 <wstephenson> no, ok.
16:12:52 <wstephenson> * old action items
16:13:06 * wstephenson leaves the topic out of bugbots control
16:13:21 <wstephenson> * remur_030 write last call mail for the kde3 applications list
16:13:30 <wstephenson> that was done wasn't it?
16:13:33 <remur_030> did, no replies
16:13:41 <wstephenson> np then
16:13:45 <wstephenson> * wstephenson put package list in gitorious
16:13:47 <wstephenson> not done
16:13:58 <wstephenson> i am starting a new kde-maintainers repo
16:14:00 <wstephenson> under opensuse/
16:14:22 <wstephenson> and it will go in there with a lot of useful scripts for doing what we do
16:14:32 <wstephenson> * status report
16:15:00 * wstephenson has been at the kde-telepathy upstream sprint
16:15:24 <wstephenson> there will be a kopete replacement as a Tech Preview for 11.4 (released with 4.6)
16:15:34 <wstephenson> and hopefully displace kopete for 4.7
16:15:36 <wstephenson> that's the plan
16:16:08 * wstephenson did UI prototyping, documentation, telepathy package updating, dropped Tapioca and the old decibel packages
16:16:11 <tittiatcoke> I saw that kcall is getting quite some attention too. I tried to build it, but I got stuck at the Telepathy gstreamer bindings
16:16:33 <wstephenson> tittiatcoke: yes kcall will basically be a thin UI around kde-telepathy
16:16:41 <remur_030> so there is chance for a decent sip application coming? =)
16:17:04 <wstephenson> tittiatcoke: i needed packman gstreamer to get anything at all working
16:17:20 <tittiatcoke> wstephenson: Ok.
16:17:28 <wstephenson> and the same guy is developing kcall and the new contact list view so he's pretty active
16:17:50 <wstephenson> gkiagia if you see him on irc
16:18:04 <wstephenson> it uses nepomuk heavily so cb400f will not be pleased.
16:18:10 <wstephenson> or else nepomuk will have to work ;)
16:18:12 <wstephenson> apart from that
16:18:17 <wstephenson> i've been doing online update stuff
16:18:21 <wstephenson> fixing packages
16:18:28 <wstephenson> adapting internal scripts for external use
16:18:44 <wstephenson> (suse internal i mean)
16:19:06 <wstephenson> switching KDF to Qt 4.7 and fixing breakages
16:19:20 <wstephenson> oh and talking with Xorg about Kwin testing.
16:19:30 <remur_030> hm?
16:19:41 <wstephenson> remur_030: seen mgraesslin's recent blogs?
16:19:57 <remur_030> wstephenson: yeah, pretty annoyed by the blame they get
16:20:11 <wstephenson> improving communications between kde and xorg so we don't rely blindly on a broken stack
16:20:24 <wstephenson> anyway. more on that to come
16:20:31 <wstephenson> llunak couldn't make the meeting
16:20:31 <remur_030> ok, how did you become involved?
16:20:41 <wstephenson> he has mostly been working on kde-obs-generator i think
16:20:53 <wstephenson> remur_030: i got involved because i have a big nose that gets stuck in things ;)
16:21:15 <remur_030> hah alright, let's hope it will work out
16:21:19 <wstephenson> remur_030: well i see an opportunity for us to use OBS to facilitate useful testing.
16:21:36 <wstephenson> other status?
16:21:43 <remur_030> I'll leave that out of the minutes for now, do a proper blog sometime please ;-)
16:21:54 <wstephenson> yeah it's too early to really talk about yet.
16:22:13 <remur_030> any horizon on kdf moving to kde 4.6?
16:22:34 <remur_030> qt4.7 fallout seems low for me thus far
16:22:49 <wstephenson> remur_030: still working on the november assumption
16:23:03 <remur_030> ok
16:23:30 <wstephenson> tittiatcoke: how's KUSC? staying up to date?
16:24:19 <tittiatcoke> KUSC got a new snapshot earlier this week. Everything builds fine, except some segmentation faults after the latest Factory update. Fortunately only the kdebindings are affected.
16:24:41 <wstephenson> i see einar77 is looking to help fix some bindings things
16:25:32 <tittiatcoke> That would be good, however for 11.3 all of them build except the akonadi/nepomuk bindings. This due to not being up to date with the latest api chagnes
16:25:35 <tittiatcoke> *changes
16:25:42 <wstephenson> if no more status reports, i'll proceed. if you think of status later, mail remur_030.
16:26:04 <tittiatcoke> Nothing KDE related from me :-)
16:26:21 <wstephenson> * Lubos' move to OOo team
16:26:22 <wstephenson> :(
16:26:35 <tittiatcoke> He is leaving the KDE team ?
16:26:42 <wstephenson> yes.
16:27:04 <wstephenson> he was doing this job for a long time, and wants a change
16:27:06 <remur_030> yeah sounded pretty much fed up on the 4.x cycle =/
16:27:16 <tittiatcoke> :-) I see.
16:27:19 <wstephenson> he will still be active upstream.
16:27:27 <tittiatcoke> Will he be replaced internally ?
16:27:29 <wstephenson> we are recruiting a replacement
16:27:40 <tittiatcoke> Ok. :-)
16:27:41 <wstephenson> we are looking internally and externally
16:27:52 <remur_030> hm can't find his blogpost anymore
16:27:55 <wstephenson> so if you didn't apply for the boosters job yet get your finger out.
16:28:03 <wstephenson> he mailed opensuse-boosters@ about it
16:28:32 <tittiatcoke> :-) Too busy with my daytime job :-)
16:28:38 <wstephenson> any questions about that?
16:28:49 <wstephenson> in the meantime i will keep the plates spinning.
16:28:58 <tigerfoot> No just a good luck to Lubos ...
16:29:03 <remur_030> hm not really, it's not like there is much to talk about =/
16:29:12 * tigerfoot didn't know if ooo is better than kde :-)
16:29:12 <wstephenson> i'll be doing less bug triage and more documenting what we do so that a new employee AND community can do them
16:29:17 <tittiatcoke> wstephenson: So you will leading the team now ?
16:29:29 <wstephenson> tittiatcoke: by default :)
16:29:31 <tittiatcoke> *lead the team now :-)
16:29:34 <tittiatcoke> :-)
16:30:04 <tittiatcoke> Then congratulations to llunak and wstephenson
16:30:05 <wstephenson> we've had quite some applications already so i am optimistic we'll get a good replacement
16:31:33 <remur_030> guess he chose a nice time to go, LOo is going quite some changes
16:31:38 <wstephenson> and i'll appreciate all of your help in keeping packages building, updates, bugs and anything else that needs doing
16:32:01 <davepl> Just want to introduce myself, I'm Dave Plater or in emails Dave P
16:32:03 <tittiatcoke> wstephenson: I am sure that I speak for all of us, that you can count on our help :-)
16:32:10 <wstephenson> thanks guys :)
16:32:15 <wstephenson> hi davepl, welcome!
16:32:26 <wstephenson> so, where are we
16:32:35 <wstephenson> Dev Days ticket
16:32:40 <wstephenson> * Dev Days ticket
16:33:07 <wstephenson> our good friends at QtDF gave us a way to recognise our favourite people
16:33:27 <wstephenson> so i wrote http://lizards.opensuse.org/2010/09/30/opensuse-kde-meeting-tonight-last-minute-qt-dev-days-giveaway/
16:33:52 <wstephenson> anybody here interested in going?
16:34:09 <wstephenson> if you don't want to stand up, mail me at wstephenson@suse.de
16:34:12 <anaumov> for 699� ?
16:34:18 <wstephenson> anaumov: no, it's a free ticket
16:34:25 <wstephenson> but we only have one
16:34:36 * tittiatcoke already has a big event on those days in Berlin :-)
16:34:54 <wstephenson> i should point out that the offer also covers Dev Days San Francisco
16:35:01 <wstephenson> in case anyone's on the US west coast
16:35:09 <wstephenson> but there can be only one.
16:35:47 <wstephenson> any questions?
16:35:51 <anaumov> hm...
16:36:10 <remur_030> tittiatcoke: too bad, Berlin is nice but you should go to the dev days;-)
16:36:35 <tittiatcoke> remur_030: Berlin is more interesting for me :-) I am not a Qt developer, but more into SAP technology :-)
16:36:36 <wstephenson> oh munich would be 11-13 oct, SF is nov 1-3
16:37:00 <wstephenson> the catch is it's the ticket only, not travel/accommodation.
16:37:29 * remur_030 shivers
16:37:33 <wstephenson> the pass covers the talks and the Qt training day as well
16:37:44 <remur_030> SAP technology? ;-)
16:38:19 <anaumov> cool ;)
16:38:40 <wstephenson> moving on...
16:38:55 <wstephenson> * Q&A, misc
16:39:37 <wstephenson> shoot, ask general questions, shout, scream, cry out to your gods. no defecating in the channel though, we don't do brown here.
16:40:10 <remur_030> any ideas for more attendence to the meeting? =)
16:40:32 <krop> sure, add p0rn pics on the wiki page
16:40:39 <thrice`> I had a question / comment.  I've tried to minorly-help out with some minor packaging, mostly in an attempt to re-learn RPM stuff; I've struggled to find good documentation on preferences for the KDE-related stuff, how to use macros properly, etc.
16:40:53 <remur_030> krop: like there is not enough around for free already ;-)
16:40:54 <NaCl> thrice` is everywhere
16:40:55 <wstephenson> remur_030: i have a kalarm now to make me send out the reminder mail
16:41:01 <thrice`> a centralized location sure would be great
16:41:12 <thrice`> NaCl, yes, my lappy is suse these days ;)
16:41:13 <wstephenson> thrice`: i'm very aware of this
16:41:30 <wstephenson> thrice`: i will be working on the wiki from a packagers' POV next week
16:41:46 <thrice`> wstephenson, oh, great :>
16:41:50 <wstephenson> i may or may not use p0rn pics to illustrate the concepts
16:42:05 <thrice`> then I may or may not read it ;)
16:42:19 <NaCl> Also, this may be a bit beyond your control, but it seems that the KDE NetworkManager backend is cannot be directed to connect to wireless networks with hidden essids.
16:42:34 <remur_030> we'd have a lot of publicity then ;-)
16:42:36 <wstephenson> NaCl: known bug, totally my control and fault, haven't had time to fix it.
16:42:49 <remur_030> not of the good kind though i guess
16:42:59 <Dominian> odd
16:43:11 <Dominian> I use the networkmanager plasmoid without issue.. although that's in KR45
16:43:19 <thrice`> Dominian, hidden networks?
16:43:19 <NaCl> wstephenson: think you're going to get time before December?
16:43:20 <Dominian> not sure if the bug is in kr45 or standard kde
16:43:21 <wstephenson> NaCl: i'm working on KNM and solid this weekend, i may get it fixed.
16:43:24 <NaCl> oh, ok
16:43:26 <NaCl> kewl
16:43:28 <Dominian> thrice`: Yeah.. my home network is hidden.. works fine.
16:43:29 <tittiatcoke> wstephenson: I want to let you know that I will withdraw my maintainership from KDE:Extra and KDE:Unstable:Playground. I want only to deal with Chromium and KDE:Unstable:SC.  Everything else somebody can take. I am sorry for this but mister davepl is ruining it nicely
16:43:46 <Dominian> but that's using networkmanager plasmoid
16:43:49 <Dominian> not sure if there's a difference
16:43:52 <thrice`> wstephenson, great, I look forward to remomving hal next Monday
16:44:08 <NaCl> Dominian: both appear to use the same backend
16:44:14 <wstephenson> tittiatcoke: did you mean to say ruining or running?
16:44:22 <tittiatcoke> ruining
16:44:28 <Dominian> odd
16:45:00 <Dominian> NaCl: I'll have to check when I get home.. actually ahng on let me remote into my AP and I'll confirm its hidden
16:45:00 <wstephenson> thrice`, NaCl, Dominian: can i suspend the NM topic? i need to get this sorted out with davepl and tittiatcoke.
16:45:08 <NaCl> sure
16:45:16 <Dominian> sure, my apologies.
16:45:21 <tittiatcoke> wstephenson: The flamewar that davepl has started has ruined my mood and I don't feel like continuing anymore with maintaining KDE:Extra nor KDE:Unstable:Playground. I just saw the last reply from davepl and that did it for me
16:45:29 <wstephenson> tittiatcoke: can we fix this before you decide to leave?
16:45:43 <tittiatcoke> Maybe.
16:46:26 <remur_030> davepl: any comment on the matter?
16:47:01 <remur_030> tittiatcoke: was it on the -kde list or somewhere else?
16:47:08 <tittiatcoke> opensuse-kde ML
16:47:11 <wstephenson> davepl: tittiatcoke is our most active packager. we need him around more than we need you. he doesn't do things arbitrarily so i assume this is a communication problem.
16:47:49 <remur_030> +1, titti is doing heavy lifting
16:48:17 <wstephenson> davepl: so i would like say please be patient while you get acclimatised to how we do things in the project.
16:49:24 <Dominian> Well, if anyone needs help I'm sure a few of us could learn the packaging standards and lend a hand... if its needed
16:49:33 <NaCl> Indeed.
16:49:50 <wstephenson> davepl, tittiatcoke: i'm sure that we're all here with the goal of making openSUSE a great distro for others to enjoy
16:50:12 <wstephenson> not as a personal ego trip or a project to be a big fish in a small pon
16:50:13 <wstephenson> +d
16:50:56 <wstephenson> so please take extra care in how you communicate with each other and assume good faith on the part of someone even if they reject your SRs
16:51:00 <davepl> Well  I noticed that KTrafficAnalyzer had been stripped of it's patches and to ensure that I wasn't mistaken I installed the version from KDE:Extra and it crashed so I resorted to filing a bug. I'm only trying to ensure that a stableKTrafficAnalyzer is in KDE:Extra not trying to put anyone down although I was prety angry when I emailed last night and apologize for anything I said out of hand. And I haven't quoted any names in public
16:51:02 <davepl> out of respect.
16:51:29 <wstephenson> davepl: i've been there too, it's easy to get frustrated doing this
16:51:45 <tittiatcoke> wstephenson: As you said we are a community that is working for others and not for ourselves. However we have set certain rules and regulations in the past to make things better for our users that do not have too much knowledge
16:51:45 * wstephenson has had more SRs rejected by the autobuild team than hot dinners
16:52:22 <wstephenson> tittiatcoke: yes and quality is as much of a priority for us as up-to-dateness
16:52:35 <tittiatcoke> davepl: Well, you might have skipped the name but you fingerpointed that this was done by the first maintainer that rejected your initial request.
16:52:44 <davepl> Rules sometimes cause problems when they are followed blindly
16:53:14 <wstephenson> davepl: also please be aware that we're all from different backgrounds and our english is frequently slightly different
16:53:21 <wstephenson> in a way that can rub people the wrong way
16:53:27 <tittiatcoke> davepl: As bitshuffler already indicated we have plenty of examples where we go around the rules because we took the decision jointly.
16:53:50 <davepl> Only visible to other maintainers and it was unfortunate that you missed sr no2
16:53:54 <wstephenson> eg the default replies i got in my first 6 months at suse when i got things wrong made my toes curl
16:54:17 <remur_030> davepl: no one wants to limit your software on purpose, keep that in mind
16:54:34 <tittiatcoke> davepl: You assumed that I was the one who ruined the package as that I was the one rejecting it. Did you bother to look at the Package in KDE:Extra to see what happened there ?
16:54:48 <wstephenson> davepl, tittiatcoke: i don't think we'll make it better by establishing the rights and wrongs of this ktrafficanalyzer package case
16:55:41 <remur_030> wstephenson: it's propably a good example for bad communication...
16:56:06 <davepl> what we need to do is forget this silly misunderstanding and move on but can I please submit the working KTrafficAnalyzer again.
16:56:28 <tittiatcoke> wstephenson: I agree. However this might be the first package that got fired upon with the new rules, but it won't be the last. So it has to be clear to the community what the initial rules are for KDE:Extra and how a request can be made to go around the rules. I believe that the link that llunak pointed at is correctly indicating the procedure
16:56:51 <wstephenson> it seems that both dave and titti feel upset by the interaction so can we call it quits on this one?
16:57:07 <davepl> I'm happy
16:57:23 <wstephenson> so the problem is that the fix is only in the svn version?
16:57:27 <remur_030> do we have some kind of mediator in the project?
16:57:39 <wstephenson> and it can't be backported to the release?
16:58:42 <davepl> I've incorporated the entire fix in one patch for the released version and you can leave the follow up with the author to me.
16:59:10 <wstephenson> tittiatcoke: just read lubos link (http://en.opensuse.org/openSUSE:KDE_Extra_repository)
16:59:12 <wstephenson> it seems clear
16:59:19 <wstephenson> (that was "i've just read")
16:59:27 <tittiatcoke> wstephenson: Yup. That is what I thought too :-)
16:59:27 <wstephenson> not an imperative :)
17:00:13 <wstephenson> tittiatcoke: is the patched released version that dave just describe acceptable under those rules? (it sounds like it to me but i haven't seen it)
17:00:24 <wstephenson> you can patch anything to anything with a big enough patch
17:01:29 <davepl> I've had unstable packages from the community repo in the past so I can understand why this all happend.
17:01:53 <tittiatcoke> wstephenson: :-) As indicated before we have plenty of examples where we discarded the rules and accepted the package in KDE:Extra. I personally have nothing against this package (even with svn version).
17:01:56 <wstephenson> davepl: yeah we are trying to tighten up the rules so there are clear levels of quality in the different projects
17:02:11 <wstephenson> tittiatcoke: ok so to you it's just about the way this was communicated?
17:02:20 <tittiatcoke> wstephenson: Yup.
17:03:16 <davepl> I'm an englishman with a cockney background so I have to think before I put things into words
17:03:21 <wstephenson> ok, so davepl apologised.
17:03:31 <wstephenson> and i'm a geordie, it's us should be daggers drawn ;)
17:03:39 <thrice`> in his defense, people from the east-side of the US have a natural attitude to them ;)
17:03:48 <davepl> LOL
17:04:05 <tittiatcoke> Well, I am Dutch and once we ruled England :-)
17:04:20 <davepl> You thought you did
17:04:39 <wstephenson> so lets just fight about politics and get on with the packaging
17:04:57 <wstephenson> i'll invite the wife and she can regale us with tales of what we've all done to the Irish.
17:05:10 <tittiatcoke> wstephenson: As said before this is indeed a communication that went too far out of control.
17:05:36 <wstephenson> yes. please be aware that it's awfully easy to tread on each others toes
17:05:48 <wstephenson> peoples toes are not always where you'd think of them
17:06:28 <davepl> One last request, I would like maintainer rights on my two critical packages, that I rely on, in KDE:Extra, KTrafficAnalyze and plasmoid-yawp.
17:07:10 <anaumov> wstephenson, We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias� :)
17:07:23 <wstephenson> davepl: and i really can't afford to lose tittiatcoke's contributions. he's a really nice guy and well able to demonstrate good proper. please understand he's only coming from wanting good packages.
17:07:40 <wstephenson> davepl: let's talk about that separately
17:07:50 <wstephenson> tittiatcoke: ok?
17:07:51 <wstephenson> davepl: ok?
17:08:01 <davepl> ok
17:08:18 <tittiatcoke> davepl: Ok
17:08:26 <tittiatcoke> wstephenson: ok
17:09:09 <wstephenson> and if anyone thinks things are getting out of hand, talk to me, or remur, or cb400f, or henne or yaloki
17:09:46 <wstephenson> more Q&A?
17:10:12 <wstephenson> if not i'll wind the meeting up now. and we can continue to chat
17:11:12 <davepl> I've just read the openSUSE:KDE_Extra_repository page and wish I'd known about it before then I would have followed the correct proceedure.
17:11:52 <wstephenson> davepl: and i'll be updating the wiki to make that easier to find and avoid similar misunderstandings
17:12:25 <wstephenson> #endmeeting